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Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

bbc.com

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Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#41

Post by adventured »

lemontruth wrote: post #24
robertlagrant wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is ultimately normal people as well, either buying from them or working for them.

do you mean more equal? tell me which normal company (people) pay sub-1% tax?

> tell me which normal company (people) pay sub-1% tax?

Which company are you talking about? Apple's tax rate in 2019 was 16%. They paid $10.5 billion in corporate income taxes.

The problem is the bureaucracy of the EU can't manage to fix their tax laws. With 27 members of the EU, and a broad spectrum of economic condition among them, there will always be nations that will benefit from very low tax rates. There is no scenario where the EU will ever fix their tax problems. Ireland is set to become one of the wealthiest nations in world history because of their corporate income tax rate, their GDP per capita is almost 100% higher than Britain and France now and that gap will keep expanding over time. Ireland is going to give that up? Not a chance.

Hungary is at 9%. What's the EU plan for dealing with that? Threaten them? Sanction them?

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#42

Post by mattmanser »

raxxorrax wrote: post #32
dylkil wrote: post #5

Irish media spinning this as a win for the irish people, while there are ongoing talks of increasing income tax on normal people to help cover the cost of this pandemic. Disgraceful.

Exactly. This is not Apples fault though, since they are not responsible for tax laws. The EU could have been a vehicle to solve that problem together, but since then I lost my believe it could enact change. Ireland has probably interest in large cooperation staying in Dublin and it might really be in the interest of Irish citizens too... Still, the current situation is just a grave case of injustice.

Would you say that someone who finds a way to murder someone within the law isn't at fault in that murder? You're simply playing a game of semantics, they're still culpable of tax evasion, just not legally culpable.

Just because Apple have found a way to avoid tax, doesn't mean it's not their fault.

You might find some idiots who argue there's a shareholder requirement, but that's not the law either.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#43

Post by zwirbl »

adventured wrote: post #41
lemontruth wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

do you mean more equal? tell me which normal company (people) pay sub-1% tax?

> tell me which normal company (people) pay sub-1% tax? Which company are you talking about? Apple's tax rate in 2019 was 16%. They paid $10.5 billion in corporate income taxes. The problem is the bureaucracy of the EU can't manage to fix their tax laws. With 27 members of the EU, and a broad spectrum of economic condition among them, there will always be nations that will benefit from very low tax rates. There is no…

Ireland is more likely to increase taxes for the general population than for corporations

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#44

Post by Frost1x »

csunbird wrote: post #29
kasperni wrote: post #13

From the original finding: "The Commission's investigation concluded that Ireland granted illegal tax benefits to Apple, which enabled it to pay substantially less tax than other businesses over many years. In fact, this selective treatment allowed Apple to pay an effective corporate tax rate of 1 percent on its European profits in 2003 down to 0.005 percent in 2014." [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU_illegal_…

Meanwhile, the working people in Germany are paying 20 percent to 35 percent income taxes in their salaries.

Welcome to America (somewhat)!

Hopefully the rest of the world won't fall for the same corporate schemes we in America did. This doesn't look so reassuring, though.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#45

Post by marcyb5st »

oblio wrote: post #21
stormdennis wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They'll appeal most likely but their chances of success look slim.

It could be. But they're only going to piss off the EU even more with these moves. Right now Apple is probably winning a battle but might be losing the war. The next big EU mandate, besides tackling climate change, will probably be clamping down on tax shenanigans. Next time they won't even be able to win anything as the law will be explicitly against such corporate maneuvers.

Are you sure? I think that countries that benefit from such schemes (e.g. Ireland, Netherlands, Luxembourg) can veto, sink such proposals before they land, or simply partially comply.

For instance, the Netherlands announced a withholding tax on royalties for 2021 "for cases where abuse is involved" [1] after international pressure. The way I read this is that they are building a facade where it looks they are complying with other EU regulations, but in reality it's business as usual. This way other EU countries have no appeal to these schemes as the Netherlands can say "we looked into these allegations, but no abuse there" and do nothing.

[1] https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/global/Docume...

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#46

Post by chvid »

csunbird wrote: post #29
kasperni wrote: post #13

From the original finding: "The Commission's investigation concluded that Ireland granted illegal tax benefits to Apple, which enabled it to pay substantially less tax than other businesses over many years. In fact, this selective treatment allowed Apple to pay an effective corporate tax rate of 1 percent on its European profits in 2003 down to 0.005 percent in 2014." [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU_illegal_…

Meanwhile, the working people in Germany are paying 20 percent to 35 percent income taxes in their salaries.

40 to 60 in Denmark ...

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#47

Post by Luc »

x87678r wrote: post #39
stepstop wrote: post #2

> “This case was not about how much tax we pay, but where we are required to pay it," Apple said in a statement. "We're proud to be the largest taxpayer in the world as we know the important role tax payments play in society." That’s a really beautiful example of spinning the story of what’s going on.

Well looks like last year they paid $10.5B in taxes (on 65.7B profits) so which part is wrong? https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/AAPL/financials?p=AAPL

16%. Niiiice.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#48

Post by stormdennis »

adventured wrote: post #41
lemontruth wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

do you mean more equal? tell me which normal company (people) pay sub-1% tax?

> tell me which normal company (people) pay sub-1% tax? Which company are you talking about? Apple's tax rate in 2019 was 16%. They paid $10.5 billion in corporate income taxes. The problem is the bureaucracy of the EU can't manage to fix their tax laws. With 27 members of the EU, and a broad spectrum of economic condition among them, there will always be nations that will benefit from very low tax rates. There is no…

A lot of Ireland's GDP is illusory, it's just money passing through Dublin on its way somewhere else.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#49

Post by fladrif »

logicchains wrote: post #38
m12k wrote: post #20

Transfer pricing and tax havens are draining money out of the economies of most European countries, breaking the virtuous cycle where consumer spending also leads to salaries, taxes and more investment in the community, to keep the economy going - instead we have a shrinking middle class, as the fuel is drained from the engine. Ireland, Luxembourg and certain other countries are complicit in this. We clearly need bet…

>Transfer pricing and tax havens are draining money out of the economies of most European countries, breaking the virtuous cycle where consumer spending also leads to salaries, taxes and more investment in the community, to keep the economy going - instead we have a shrinking middle class, as the fuel is drained from the engine. An alternative interpretation is that the high degree of taxes and regulations in Europe…

What are the benefits of a fortune 500? Who are the beneficiaries? The main ones would be investors and management, including a subset of employees. Given the tax loopholes that are often taken advantage of, I would hardly say that the countries or cities they reside in are beneficiaries in as far as tax income, though they definitely have a hub effect of drawing people into the locations they are in. Whether that is beneficial for original inhabitants is debatable, given gentrification and increased inequality of those who the city warps around to serve, and those who serve them.

On the other hand, Europe has lower inequality amongst citizens, and an argument could be made to say that this increases happiness. What they are missing out on wrt fortune 500's is creativity that creates new technologies that pushes boundaries and revolutionizes the world (perhaps an oversimplification of the argument). Though they may not be at the forefront of this, it would be inaccurate to say that they do not benefit from innovations occurring in the world.

My argument is that they currently occupy the coveted position to benefit both from the inequality of other countries yet retain the benefits of a more equal society. Viewing the entire world as an unequal society, the winners would be the ones at the top of unequal countries, followed by the equal countries, with those at the bottom of unequal societies trailing. Ideally the entire world would all have equal societies, but in no situation would I think countries with equality strive for the benefits of those with unequality

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#50

Post by read_if_gay_ »

unicornfinder wrote: post #34
iRomain wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An horrible company that makes great product. Such is my dilemma with Apple!

I mean, their products aren't that great. Their desktop lineup is quite frankly rubbish.

Their specs aren't great compared to competitors at the same price point, but specs are a small part of what makes up your desktop computing experience.
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