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U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

bloomberg.com

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Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#251

Post by laGrenouille »

qserasera wrote: post #249

I'm honestly displeased with this ending. Universities that want to commit 100% learning online should not charge full price. Universities that are 100% online before Covid should not be able to grant visas as they have no campus. There is a LOT unregulated, unlegislated here and a lot that needs to be organized now. Many organizations will continue to set unacceptable standards for education and in my opinion need t…

I do not disagree with your opinions about tuition or universities that were 100% online prior to the pandemic, but the original rule and subsequent retraction little to do with either point. None of these rules (directly) concern tuition money and it would be nearly impossible at the moment for a foreign student to work through the U.S. visa program to study at remote schools that do not have a history of issuing student visas.

By the far the largest group of students effected by the policy are foreign nationals that did not return to their home countries in the spring and would be subject to immediate deportation in the fall depending on their school's form of instruction. This was a purely vindictive and xenophobic move by the administration. I was extremely happy to hear of this policy reversal. It (at least temporarily) removes some pointless stress on millions of students who already have more things to worry about than they should.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#252

Post by qserasera »

laGrenouille wrote: post #251
qserasera wrote: post #249

I'm honestly displeased with this ending. Universities that want to commit 100% learning online should not charge full price. Universities that are 100% online before Covid should not be able to grant visas as they have no campus. There is a LOT unregulated, unlegislated here and a lot that needs to be organized now. Many organizations will continue to set unacceptable standards for education and in my opinion need t…

I do not disagree with your opinions about tuition or universities that were 100% online prior to the pandemic, but the original rule and subsequent retraction little to do with either point. None of these rules (directly) concern tuition money and it would be nearly impossible at the moment for a foreign student to work through the U.S. visa program to study at remote schools that do not have a history of issuing st…

EDIT

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#253

Post by BeetleB »

qserasera wrote: post #252
laGrenouille wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not disagree with your opinions about tuition or universities that were 100% online prior to the pandemic, but the original rule and subsequent retraction little to do with either point. None of these rules (directly) concern tuition money and it would be nearly impossible at the moment for a foreign student to work through the U.S. visa program to study at remote schools that do not have a history of issuing st…

EDIT

He/she explicitly said he/she doesn't disagree with you. Why are you asking this question?

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#254

Post by caf »

karmelapple wrote: post #246
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this not a bug? A straightforward patch would be the introduction of FPTP and moving the executive role from the office of the head-of-state to a body controlled by congress.

Ranked Choice Voting, which is now the law for all elections in the state of Maine except the Presidency, is a way to help ensure that the winning candidate has been chosen by at least 50% of voters, even if the winning candidate wasn’t the first choice for all voters. Adopting RCV seems to me like one of the best ways we can improve the health of the US’s democracy going forward. Any voters Massachusetts can vote th…

It has also been adopted for all municipal elections in New York City.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#255

Post by burfog »

jessaustin wrote: post #239
DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The noise was heard loud and clear that America is only as competent as its leader. Honest question because I'm not a student of world politics: what countries have had consistently better governance over the last 20 years? Every time some possibility comes to mind, I quickly recall a reason to cross it off the list.

Off the top of my head, I think of nations who have dealt effectively with the current health challenge: New Zealand, South Korea, Germany, etc.

South Korea's leader was following orders from a cult leader. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_South_Korean_political_sc...

Germany has a huge self-inflicted migrant crisis. New Zealand seems to be heading down that path.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#256

Post by alexmingoia »

maddyboo wrote: post #15

Can someone explain how foreign students taking online classes gives them ‘full rein’ and is a threat to national security? > ICE also contends that a full slate of virtual coursework compromises national security by giving foreign students free rein within the U.S., and says a freeze would undermine “the deference afforded administrative agencies in complex and interrelated fields like immigration enforcement.”

It's not a threat to national security. Unfortunately Congress has given the President the power to do pretty much whatever he wants for whatever reason with regard to immigration enforcement.

The Immigration and Nationality Act gives the president authority to do whatever he wants:

> "Whenever the president finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants..."

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#258

Post by totalZero »

qwerty456127 wrote: post #257

Am I the only one thinking fighting to rid the country of the students resourceful enough to study in Harvard and MIT is madness? I would rather give them citizenship without even waiting for them to graduate.

For the sake of circumspection, I suppose a counterpoint to your thinking might go like this......

These institutions receive an abundance of high-quality applications every year and choose only a few; for every admitted international student, several amazing domestic applicants are rejected. The government does not need to bend over backwards for the international students who won the admissions lottery, because they already have a huge advantage. Rather, it might prefer to fight for the interests of its own citizens, whose advancement is in their personal best interest as well as that of the nation.

If an international student follows the established legal processes whereby a foreign person can become an American citizen, he, too, can benefit from a system that protects the interest of American citizens.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#259

Post by totalZero »

stu2b50 wrote: post #201
RHSeeger wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was under the impression that the law that was already in place was that purely online courses were not allowed. And that it had been in place for a long time. After coming out and stating "this is already the law", and resulting pushback against it, the thing changed by this administration was to allow purely online courses for visa students. Are you saying that allowing purely online learning for students with vi…

The blunder was retracting the special exception made during Spring 2020 that allowed F and M visa students to take online classes. The pandemic is far from over, especially in the US, a fact which is obvious to everyone. The retraction is pure stupidity. Of course it would be unreasonable to ask int students to attend in person classes given the situation.

I have been on the fence about this policy, for the following reason.

On the one hand, it seems overtly xenophobic and anti-intellectual. On the other hand, I don't see why an international student needs to be in the United States in order to participate exclusively in online classes.

Even if the issue is a lack of human welfare (eg unsafe neighborhood) or necessary infrastructure (eg slow/inconsistent internet) back home, an international student could live somewhere else and probably save a ton of money in the process.

What am I missing?

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#260

Post by KorematsuFred »

generationP wrote: post #139
ngngngng wrote: post #104

A well known religious University near me just started offering "in person" (wink wink) classes where attendance would not be taken. I was proud to see it.

Actually, most universities don't take attendance. It's a waste of time, it punishes pro-social behavior (there is no good reason for people feeling sick to go to class), and it's infantilizing. "Attendance required" often means "we will notice if you never attend, and then will feel less bad failing you if you don't do your homework either".

Average university that admits lots of foreign students take attendance including biometric attendance. This is especially true for universities where students are in constant crosshair of ICE/USCIS etc. This is done not because University cares about you attending but they have to comply with the law.

If you admit a student from Pakistan in your Santa Clara campus but ICE finds the student working in New Jersey, the student gets deported and University admin might face criminal charges. So any university where this is a risk factor, takes attendance seriously.

In some cases US federal government has setup fraudulent universities themselves, worked actively with Dept. of State to promote these universities in India and to Indian students studying in other universities as "no need to attend" university and then entrapped these students and their employers.

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