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Resignation Letter

bariweiss.com

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Re: Resignation Letter

#641

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #623
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's a complete misstatement of what I said. I acknowledge in that comment that there are people who call themselves "progressives" whose behavior would be considered by many to not be aligned with progressive ideology. I acknowledge in another comment below that there are people who call themselves "conservatives" whose behaviour and/or beliefs do not align with the general understanding of conservative politi…

So are you making the “small vocal minority” argument? “Most progressives are principled liberals who condemn cancellation but we never hear from them”? And why are you focusing so much on doctrine as though progressive doctrine and not progressive behavior is on trial. I take very little consolation from the idea that progressive doctrine condemns cancellation or that in theory progressives ought to be tolerant and…

What does "progressive behavior" mean? What does "conservative behavior" mean? The sort of thing typically being discussed here (in relation to so-called "cancel culture") typically involve the action of a few thousand (or less) people working almost entirely online or within the context of a small social context (for example a college).

For me, what matters are policies enacted that have the power to affect thousands or millions of people. Whether or not I approve of or even believe in "cancel culture", it's a marginal affair whether it's affecting conservatives or progressives.

Progressive policy vs. conservative policy? There's no contest, no comparison between the two that does not differentiate heavily between them on the basis of inclusivity, tolerance, egalitarianism and so forth.

As Atrios notes (a lot; Eschaton) "oh noes, those crazy powerful college kids have gotten another conservative speaker to go away while meanwhile there's been another tax cut, another step toward voting disenfranchisement, another shift towards even greater wealth/income inequality etc. etc".

In short, given the scale of the impact actual policy, I'm not sure how much I care whether there actually is a "cancel culture" or not.

Re: Resignation Letter

#642

Post by prepend »

burnte wrote: post #242
prepend wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve watched this with interest over the years as readership drops to a smaller group that spends more. I believe NYT is still profitable despite lower circulation. I could guess that this lower circulation is, at least partly, the result of readers who don’t appreciate a false reality being reported as truth. I’m not sure how to measure this. It’s based on my own technique of when I encounter someone speaking false…

> I could guess that this lower circulation is, at least partly, the result of readers who don’t appreciate a false reality being reported as truth. The NYT's subscription rates are way up since Trump was elected. > I’m already surprised how long they’ve lasted. You already stated why they're seeing such success. "the result of readers who don’t appreciate a false reality being reported as truth."

Digital subscribers have been consistently up since they started a digital subscription [0] but I meant actual readers since I think digital subscriptions earn less than historical subscribers and number of subscribers has a lot of variability of what price is paid.

I was thinking of their profit and revenue [1] that keeps trending down (although this year is up). That’s probably a better sign of actual readers over time, I think.

[0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/315041/new-york-times-co... [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/192848/revenue-of-the-ne...

Re: Resignation Letter

#643

Post by manigandham »

Nerdfest wrote: post #634
Taikonerd wrote: post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The WSJ and Bloomberg are OK, although they tend to have business-heavy coverage. I feel like there's a real market opening here, for a centrist, general-interest newspaper. (Suggested slogan: "Like the NYT Was 20 Years Ago.")

I've seen some pretty right-wing stuff on WSJ in the last few months.

Centrist does not mean right-wing, nor does it mean just mixing both political extremes.

Re: Resignation Letter

#644

Post by yahnu »

nazgulnarsil wrote: post #635
yahnu wrote: post #608

I used to be a skeptic of MSM in general but started reading/following NYT and some other major news outlets about an year ago to challenge my own mindset. From what I have seen, to my surprise, the NYT's opinion section does encompass diverse viewpoints and reports in general are neutral in tone! Any criticism I have seen of NYT are either nitpicking (example: headline being too moderate) or taking an incident that…

consider that neutrality may be dependent on where one stands.

A 'news' article is different than an 'opinion' article.

Most news reports contains statements backed by verifiable sources/references/evidence. In general, a 'news' article is and should be neutral.

A good news outlet maintains that difference. Blurring the lines between the two is an indicator of the organization's bias.

IMO, NYT is one such good organization. That was my point if I wasn't clear!

Re: Resignation Letter

#645

Post by RachelF »

erikerikson wrote: post #550
jrumbut wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have 1,600 journalists last year that were sent to 150 countries [1]. What other organization is doing anything like that effort to gather facts around the world? Who is doing more collective discovery (and making it accessible to the public at a price an average person can afford)? I can only think of a handful of organizations that are serious candidates (Reuters? The BBC? Wikipedia?). Weird puff pieces, drama…

You get a different bias from The Economist but I'm fairly happy reading it. Not sure on the numbers of personnel or their distribution.

The Economist is still one of the best, but they have also deteriorated in the last 3 years, and continue slowly descending into NewSpeak.

Re: Resignation Letter

#646

Post by LockAndLol »

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #439
mikece wrote: post #39

"And so self-censorship has become the norm." This might be the most ironic and most dangerous effect of this "right think" regime: that the free expression and exchange of ideas is thwarted in advance because one doesn't want to deal with drama, fight, or insults that come with saying something not in lock-step with the prevailing group-think. This blunts the curiosity of the intellect and silences all true disciple…

You can see this directly on Reddit, or even here, thanks to the downvote button. It doesn't matter how right you may be, how many sources you may have, if it angers a sufficient people to lead to your post being downvoted, no one will be able to read it. And though the points are made up, it's always annoying to look at a post you spent half an hour typing and researching just to have it get down to -6 with no furth…

I have learned not to use reddit for discussion or to express opinions contrary to the American mainstream. It won't get you anywhere as you simply won't be heard. You best find another place to do so - where, I don't know yet. Maybe Aether...

Re: Resignation Letter

#647

Post by jkingsbery »

Benjammer wrote: post #268
jkingsbery wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What exactly does "collective discovery" mean in the context of a newspaper? National Review will often have a chain of columns between two of its writers going back and forth debating the merits of a particular position. That is what collective discovery should look like - a publication should encourage views that the editors might disagree with in order to understand the different perspectives on a topic. Now, it…

I mostly intended these questions rhetorically, or directed at Bari herself, as opposed to really wanting another HN commenter to go down the line and "respond" to each one. I don't know how productive that is going to be on this forum.

I don't expect Bari Weiss lurks on HN, but fortunately the questions you asked were already mostly answered by her in her resignation letter.

Re: Resignation Letter

#648

Post by RonanTheGrey »

achileas wrote: post #580
ignoramceisblis wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The poster stated nothing of the sort. You're conflating "expressing opinions" (by clicking a button) with: making it less likely for the poster's expression to ever be seen.

Are all opinions entitled to a private platform? Expressing disagreement via mechanisms a platform provides is, indeed, expressing an opinion. What all this concern trolling really sounds like isn't an actual defense of values of free speech, but rather sheltering someone from the speech of others.

> Are all opinions entitled to a private platform? Expressing disagreement via mechanisms a platform provides is, indeed, expressing an opinion.

You seem to be of the opinion that the downvotes are more important than the comment they are downvoting: They are not. They are at best, equivalent, and deserve no more special recognition than the comment itself; yet the fact that a comment gets buried as a result, gives those downvotes a weight greater than that of the subject comment.

Because if that weren't the case, you'd recognize that those downvotes are ALSO apparently entitled to a private platform.

If it's good for one, it is good for both, and it is equivalent to argue that the downvotes aren't entitled to a platform either, and you're left at square one, without a meaningful conclusion.

Maybe, just maybe, that isn't a useful approach to take.

Re: Resignation Letter

#649

Post by jb775 »

bhouston wrote: post #346

Bari Weiss is a problematic character in this area. She has played gatekeeper herself quite stridently and successfully. She is quite fine with her own "involvement in numerous campaigns to vilify and ruin the careers of several Arab and Muslim professors due to their criticisms of Israel" per Glenn Greenwald in the Intercept: https://theintercept.com/2018/03/08/the-nyts-bari-weiss-fals...

Apples to oranges. There's a huge difference between an individual journalist numerously reporting on something they feel strongly about vs. the most influential newspaper in the world turning into a hyper-partisan (left-wing) propaganda machine.

Re: Resignation Letter

#650

Post by st1ck »

AxiomCloNe wrote: post #579
JeremyNT wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They have 1,600 journalists last year that were sent to 150 countries [1]. What other organization is doing anything like that effort to gather facts around the world? Reuters [0], for one, which boasts "2500 journalists and 600 photojournalists." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuters A key thing to understand about the editorial / news hybrids like the NYT, CNN, or Fox News is that they're selling multiple product…

what are some of these outlets you know of? I've been trying to ironclad my news sources after getting into Chomsky recently but have only found Democracy Now! and Novara media, as well as a couple other small speciality podcasts that seem potentially good. Would appreciate pointers.

You can also try The Intercept.
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