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Resignation Letter

bariweiss.com

611–620 of 716 posts

Re: Resignation Letter

#611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Can't anyone there see past the current insanity and think? "To be inclusive, we have to get rid of her"? Don't they even hear the words coming out of their own mouths? This confuses a lot of people, but the explanation is simple: it is the Paradox of Tolerance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance Namely, not tolerating someone, who themselves espouse intolerant views and give voice to intolerant ex…

Unfortunately, there does seem to be a massive lack of consistency on which intolerance to tolerate. Since we’re talking about Bari Weiss, Israel serves as a good example. While the left is typically critical of Israel and their “racist”, “apartheid” state, they generally have very little to say about their overtly anti-Semitic neighbor states. I’m sure there’s lots of criticism to go round here, but whoever is talki…

I would also suggest we look at how different groups define 'intolerance' in practice. In my opinion, a certain group has contorted the term beyond recognition to the effect that it exactly describes their outgroup. One could be forgiven for thinking this contortion is deliberate, particularly in light of this group's propensity toward semantic games.

Re: Resignation Letter

#612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Paradox of Tolerance. The paradox of the paradox of tolerance, though, is that you can exclude any ideology for any reason and insist that you're only excluding the "intolerant" and shut down criticism by invoking the paradox of tolerance.

Kind of like Bari was doing at the Times? Being unable to handle criticism is the entire reason Bari is leaving.

In what world is "leaving" "intolerant", but "harassment" is "criticism"? Why are all of Weiss's critics in this thread making these kinds of overtly fallacious arguments? Surely there's something Weiss has actually done to merit criticism?

Re: Resignation Letter

#613
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's little evidence this is the case. This post could be summarized in one sentence: Bari Weiss wanted people fired because they called her names and the NYT refused, so she quit and threatened legal action.

I support the Harper's letter and sympathise with many of Weiss' criticisms, but I agree that she flirts with cancel culture territory herself with her language about a hostile work environment. Do you want robust debate or not?

Yes, that is why the remark about cancel culture is spot-on. Debate centres around opinions which are shared and discussed so as to end up with a winning argument or position. Dialectic centres around people voicing opposing opinions to try to find out the truth. Neither of these two can work when voicing an opinion outside of the Overton window can and often does end up with the person voicing said opinion being silenced or removed. Cancel culture is not about a robust debate, it is about staging a debate where only approved opinions are allowed to be heard.

Re: Resignation Letter

#614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Saying you agree with free speech, such as the Harper's Letter which is about as milquetoast and generic as it gets, is viciously attacked on the left for being racist, anti-trans, the authors are scum, anyone who signs it should be fired, and on and on. As a testament to the existence of cancel culture and the stifling of any opinion against the party line in the progressive media, I can't think of a mor…

First, I think you're lumping "the left" together and assuming "the left" believes whatever the most extreme "left" tweets say. Second, Bari Weiss can write whatever she wants. Totally her right. She's got a website there in the link! She can continue to reach a global audience. Does the NYTimes need to promote her? No, that's not a right I'm willing to die for. Third, why on earth is Bari Weiss' opinion more sacrosa…

> If she says something I consider offensive, I might say I think it's offensive. If she says something dumb, I might say I think it's dumb.

Respectfully, I think you're missing the point. She works at a journalistic outlet that claims to be neutral and factual. When her peers demean her openly within the company for "writing about the Jews" (because she supports Israel), that shows that NYT is no longer operating like a legitimate news house. After all, their employees feel a freedom and psychological safety in openly harassing peers for their ideas and political views. The comments here are not asking to insulate Bari Weiss's ideas from intellectual critique or from public criticism. They are against biases in journalism, the censorship of ideas, and ideological bullying/discrimination in the workplace.

> Fourth, when I hear people complain about "going against the progressive party line" or whatever, I generally hear people wanting to be some flavor of racist, sexist, transphobic, or just asshole-ish without consequence.

The problem is that words like "transphobic" have a wide range of meanings, and are purposely vague to dismiss anyone who doesn't pass an arbitrary purity test. There are very few people who wish violence (physical harm) against trans people. But there are lots of people, who very reasonably, think trans women shouldn't compete in women's sports and that trans women are not women. The attempts to censor or deplatform THOSE discussions are exactly the type of hate speech mission creep that characterizes "cancel culture".

Re: Resignation Letter

#615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're against people expressing their opinions in response to your own?

I think the OP argued pretty explicitly that a well researched comment, that violates the orthodoxy, is down-voted until it is removed from public discussion. I'm not sure how you can come to the conclusion that he's "against others expressing their opinions".

For better or worse, the up/downvote buttons are used to express an opinion -- that is the primary purpose.

The problem is that any crowdsourced curation feature uses significant downvotes as a signal for spam or content which otherwise violates the site policies.

Re: Resignation Letter

#616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It sounds like you're making a semantic argument. To you "progressives" by definition adhere to a liberal ethos (perhaps even that any who adhere to a certain liberal ethos are also 'progressives'), ergo they can't be the ones doing the (inherently illiberal) cancelling. Others are observing that the group that identifies as (and is commonly known as) 'progressives' seem to be practicing or defending cancellation. As…

No, that's a complete misstatement of what I said. I acknowledge in that comment that there are people who call themselves "progressives" whose behavior would be considered by many to not be aligned with progressive ideology.

I acknowledge in another comment below that there are people who call themselves "conservatives" whose behaviour and/or beliefs do not align with the general understanding of conservative political ideology.

Neither of these facts about the world changes the difference(s) in the nature of progressive and conservative political ideologies. Among those differences is the general trend for progressivism to be inclusive and tolerant of difference, and for conservatism to be exclusionary and less tolerant of difference. And who knows, conservatives might be right - perhaps stable societies do need a conservative stance (unclear). That doesn't mean that the two philosophies are the same, which in turns makes the behavior of people who attach themselves to those philosophies likely to skew in different directions.

Re: Resignation Letter

#617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, but my point is the original claim of "journalism is not our fact gathering process" is just wrong. Sure, there's a frame problem in journalism just as much as there is in AI, and sure, journalists play a (possibly outsized) role in finding contemporary suboptimal solutions for it. But even with that being the case, somebody has to go out and get information for us to talk about, argue about, rage about,…

> my point is the original claim of "journalism is not our fact gathering process" is just wrong. Allow me to reword; facts are necessary but not at all sufficient to constitute journalism, nor journalism can claim monopoly on fact gathering. E.g. we have other, more formal, fact gathering processes such as science or court of law, which cannot be substituted with journalism, damages of which we see to the extent it…

I would broadly agree with that. I am not sure it is the job of journalism to "convert facts into sense", though it seems reasonable to posit that this is part of the role of journalism in contemporary society. It is certainly something that many journalists (particularly of the journal-ist variety aka op-ed writers) try to do. But it seems to me that if you're serious about trying to make sense of the facts/the world, you need to turn to much deeper analysis than journalism typically represents.

Re: Resignation Letter

#618
post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Debate only works if one side isn't arguing in bad faith. We should simply allow political stances that have real harm to simply run amok with "debate"? That got us 140,000 dead. Yeah, I'm kinda done with the "debate" idea. It's time to bring "consequence" to people's political stances. The only reason people are bitching about "cancel culture" is that they finally have to face some consequence for their political st…

> We should simply allow political stances that have real harm to simply run amok with "debate"? Yeah, I'm kinda done with the "debate" idea. It's time to bring "consequence" to people's political stances. At least you're open about your opposition to free speech. That's something I guess... In your mind, are your political cohorts always going to wield the power to cancel or can you imagine a world in which the far…

> At least you're open about your opposition to free speech.

"Free speech" is about the government suppressing your speech. If private individuals find your speech odious, they are perfectly within their rights to shun and ignore you.

> In your mind, are your political cohorts always going to wield the power to cancel or can you imagine a world in which the far right wing holds that power and persecutes you and yours for your views based on the same arguments you make above?

I'm already standing in a culture that "cancels" me.

For example, a bunch of people hooked up to a well-funded political propaganda apparatus believe that a global pandemic is "a liberal hoax" against the backdrop of 140,000 dead and a global economy in shambles.

A pandemic isn't up for debate--it's a fact.

So, these people get exactly what they want at my expense and I'm just supposed to take it in the name of "free speech"?

What is MY recourse? Where is MY justice?

Yeah, I'm not happy about "cancel culture", but right now it's the only damn thing sticking up for me that is actually effective.

Feel free to suggest what I should be doing instead.

Re: Resignation Letter

#619
post #3

"Instead, a new consensus has emerged in the press, but perhaps especially at [the New York Times]: that truth isn't a process of collective discovery, but an orthodoxy already known to an enlightened few whose job is to inform everyone else." This is a very key point, and what are the consequences of "informing everyone of a truth" that doesn't accurately reflect -- of even contradicts! -- reality? Harm to the reput…

They have 1,600 journalists last year that were sent to 150 countries [1]. What other organization is doing anything like that effort to gather facts around the world? Who is doing more collective discovery (and making it accessible to the public at a price an average person can afford)? I can only think of a handful of organizations that are serious candidates (Reuters? The BBC? Wikipedia?). Weird puff pieces, drama…

> Who is doing more collective discovery (and making it accessible to the public at a price an average person can afford)? I can only think of a handful of organizations that are serious candidates (Reuters? The BBC? Wikipedia?). Reuters, Bloomberg, the Associated Press, and Fox News all come to mind for the metrics you've brought up. The NYT is not a peerless entity. I'm sure people will bemoan Fox News being on that list but they're none the less one of the largest news orgs in the country and their actual news segments aren't wildly different from what other orgs pump out.

Re: Resignation Letter

#620

Bari Weiss is a problematic character in this area. She has played gatekeeper herself quite stridently and successfully. She is quite fine with her own "involvement in numerous campaigns to vilify and ruin the careers of several Arab and Muslim professors due to their criticisms of Israel" per Glenn Greenwald in the Intercept: https://theintercept.com/2018/03/08/the-nyts-bari-weiss-fals...

> In the course of the controversy, Weiss, in a tweet-essay that began here, finally addressed her own history of trying to ruin the careers of Arab and Muslim scholars for the crime of criticizing Israel.

It's possible that Greenwald is... I think the technical term is "full of shit". In seriousness, how is anyone supposed to take this seriously? If you ignore all of the transparent ad hominem, the only bit of substance in the article is that Weiss accused her professors of racism--there's nothing to support the idea that she was trying to ruin their careers (in 2004, allegations of 'racism' didn't ruin careers--indeed, some proponents of cancellation even argue that these allegations don't ruin careers in 2020).

Anyway, even if Weiss's accusations of racism were intended to harm the careers of her professors, it was nearly 2 decades ago and she was fresh out of high school. When Nikole Hannah-Jones was her age, she was writing that whites were "the biggest murderer, rapist, pillager, and thief of the modern world" and that "the descendants of these savage people … continue to be bloodsuckers in our communities". Ibram X. Kendi was writing that whites are literal aliens. Thankfully, these titans of race (and much beloved by cancellation advocates) have somewhat moderated their views before assuming command of their prominent, powerful platforms. Sarah Jeong was named Forbes "30 under 30" and hired onto the NYT only a few short years (if that) after writing some of the most overtly racist stuff I've seen in my life (worse even than Hannah-Jones' collegiate ramblings) and virtually the whole media industry went to bat for her. Let's put this criticism of Weiss' college remarks into perspective.

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