German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving • Hacker News Board

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#401

Post by azernik » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 10:12 PM UTC

baxtr wrote: post #178

ojnabieoot wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tesla goofed from the beginning by calling tech like "Autosteer" and "Traffic Assisted Cruise Control" under the moniker "Autopilot" I am not accusing you specifically of using weak language, but let's call a spade a spade: it's not a "goof," it's a dangerous and deceptive business practice. It's one that Elon Musk is directly responsible for and directly encouraged with misleading statements where he deliberately…

> It is true that highly knowledgeable people know that Musk is an idiot conman That and the richest man on the planet. What does this tell about us as a species? Some compare him to the late Jobs. I think this couldn’t be farther from the truth.

He not quite the richest man on the planet - that's Jeff Bezos.

16-richest, from the last Forbes ranking that shows up on Google.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#402

Post by catalogia » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 10:14 PM UTC

maxharris wrote: post #383

catalogia wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I skimmed the video. It's doing what I expected, knocking down a goofy strawman of LIDAR-only while ignoring the obvious camera/LIDAR sensor fusion. The depth map Tesla is getting from stereoscopic vision is pretty shoddy; sensor fusion with LIDAR is the obvious solution. The reason Telsa resists this is because they want to market their cars as having all the requisite hardware and acknowledging the usefulness of LI…

Hmm, looks like Tesla actually does do sensor fusion, just not with lidar: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19803817 I also think that being so cynical about Tesla's motives is pretty short-sighted from an investment perspective. In the long-term, they don't win if they don't get this right.

Their radar/ultrasound has awful angular resolution. That's where LIDAR excels.

This is why Telsa cars run into trucks parked across the street. Their stereoscopic depth map is shoddy and the radar or ultrasound has awful angular resolution that can't tell the difference between an object parked next to the street and one parked in the middle of the street.

> "In the long-term, they don't win if they don't get this right."

They've been claiming they're on the cusp of getting it right in the short-term for years. So far, my cynicism has served me well.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#403

Post by flywheel » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 10:16 PM UTC

nemothekid wrote: post #123

reubenswartz wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you driven one? There is plenty of (over)hype, but the cars are quite nice.

I have, and I also adore the cars, my next car will likely be a Tesla and I own the stock. I've spent a lot of time researching the company so I didn't come to this conclusion by being bitter over the company. I think it's important to point out that the success of the company is largely built on the mythos of the man rather than the objective success of the cars. Tesla, earlier this week reached a market cap exceedi…

>* SpaceX will put a colony on mars, and they will only drive Teslas on mars

You keep saying some interesting things and then you say something ridiculous that makes the rest of what you say seems pretty questionable.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#404

Post by azernik » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 10:17 PM UTC

Vysero wrote: post #64

croes wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't he claim the same last year and the year before?

Really? You're guna bet against Elon Musk? You really think that's wise? XD

When he gives timelines? ABSOLUTELY it's wise.

SpaceX watchers call it "Elon Time". When Gwynne Shotwell gives you a time estimate, you can take it seriously (subject to regular engineering uncertainty). When Elon Musk gives you a time estimate, laugh it off and say "that's adorable" and recognize that it's mostly intended to keep investors happy and to put pressure on his engineers.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#405

Post by catalogia » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 10:17 PM UTC

ogre_codes wrote: post #391

catalogia wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With a typical aircraft autopilot, the pilot is allowed to take their hands off the controls. Tesla's manual quite clearly forbids that.

You are splitting hairs. The problem isn't whether someone has their hands on the controls or not, it's the fact that the operator isn't paying attention to what's going on outside the vehicle.

It's not splitting hairs to say Tesla has a level 2 system at best but Elon Musk wants you to believe level 5 might be ready by next year.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#406

Post by saddlerustle » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 10:18 PM UTC

tcoff91 wrote: post #353

Animats wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla’s Chief Executive Elon Musk said this month the electric car manufacturer was close to making its cars capable of automated driving without any need for driver input, so-called Level 5 autonomy. Yeah, right. Tesla has only Level 2 self-driving. They've never demonstrated Level 3 outside a video of a demo in Palo Alto. They wouldn't even let the press take a ride. Google/Waymo has hundreds of self-driving vehicl…

wait... you can seriously get a fully autonomous taxi in Phoenix right now with no safety driver? That is wild! has anyone documented this on video?

technically, but only a handful (<5) of vehicles are run without a safety driver, each has a dedicated remote operator and a follower vehicle, and the area covered is much smaller than their regular operation (a small area in the suburbs).

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#407

Post by ogre_codes » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 10:23 PM UTC

catalogia wrote: post #405

ogre_codes wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are splitting hairs. The problem isn't whether someone has their hands on the controls or not, it's the fact that the operator isn't paying attention to what's going on outside the vehicle.

It's not splitting hairs to say Tesla has a level 2 system at best but Elon Musk wants you to believe level 5 might be ready by next year.

No, it isn't. But it doesn't remotely relate to what I said either. Aircraft "autopilot" wouldn't be considered Level 2 either.

That's the point, there is a vast difference in the publics perception of what autopilots do in aircraft versus what they actually do.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#408

Post by LoSboccacc » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 10:24 PM UTC

amznthrwaway wrote: post #348

PCChris wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do say on the same page you linked that "Current Autopilot features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous."

They've also been promising full autonomy for five years straight. The wording of "Current autopilot features" is intended to help deceive the public into thinking that full autonomy is coming next year.

> next year

this year https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2020/07/09/elon-mu...

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#409

Post by mcnamaratw » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 10:24 PM UTC

krick wrote: post #284

bb611 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"markets can remain irrational a lot longer than you and I can remain solvent." TSLA proves this in spades, right now the stock is trading at more than double what Elon said was "overvalued" 10 weeks ago.

But the bubble must collapse eventually, right? Enron was "the most innovative company" for 6 years in a row too.

It does. But there's not necessarily any safe way to profit on it. Shorting can force you out at the high. Puts expire.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#410

Post by saddlerustle » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 10:24 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #238

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main Autopilot marketing page shows a video of a Tesla driving itself, says the Driver is there for legal purposes only This alone feels like lawsuit-bait. I'm surprised it took this long for the courts to get involved.

Tesla’s Chief Executive Elon Musk said this month the electric car manufacturer was close to making its cars capable of automated driving without any need for driver input, so-called Level 5 autonomy. Yeah, right. Tesla has only Level 2 self-driving. They've never demonstrated Level 3 outside a video of a demo in Palo Alto. They wouldn't even let the press take a ride. Google/Waymo has hundreds of self-driving vehicl…

Waymo is not currently offering any rides. Their service has been suspended for riders since March.