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Resignation Letter

bariweiss.com

581–590 of 716 posts

Re: Resignation Letter

#581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're against people expressing their opinions in response to your own?

I think the OP argued pretty explicitly that a well researched comment, that violates the orthodoxy, is down-voted until it is removed from public discussion. I'm not sure how you can come to the conclusion that he's "against others expressing their opinions".

Downvoting is an expression of opinion. Opinions aren't owed platforms and never have been. Are all magazines anti-free speech because they don't publish everyone?

And besides, "well-researched" is highly subjective in the best of cases, and in ones like this is usually not accurate in any sense.

Re: Resignation Letter

#582
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely disagree. And I think Joe Rogan's podcast is the perfect example of how the market is suggesting exactly what you replied to. "Normal Americans" don't read the NYT anymore, or WSJ, or the Post, they listen to Joe Rogan on Spotify and Youtube. There's virtually no limit to who Joe will have on his show, and while he's not a remarkable interviewer, he brings the often vital opinions of his guests on all side…

> Completely disagree. And I think Joe Rogan's podcast is the perfect example of how the market is suggesting exactly what you replied to. Dave Chapelle, too. Comedians are lying to you (mostly), they are regular people trying to figure shit out (often times with you listening at home). This is why they are popular.

aren't lying

Re: Resignation Letter

#583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of us who think that the "Paradox of Tolerance" is mistaken, rather than truth. It may sound reasonable, but it is used in practice to define ideas we don't like as intolerant, and then exclude those who hold those ideas. If you look around, those on the left aren't showing themselves to be paragons of tolerance. They are nearly as narrow-minded as the right, just with different in-groups and out-gro…

[flagged]

> Even if I concede that there are some on the left who fit your description, the whole point is that left/progressive political philosophy is fundamentally aspirational towards tolerance and inclusivity. Right/conservative political philosophy is fundamentally not.

I don't find this description of right vs. left accurate at all. Or perhaps more specifically I don't feel like the people I have interacted with "on the right" communicate a sense of "intolerance" or "exclusivity". Certainly not to the extent that I would generalize that as a group characteristic. Nor have I encountered more academic definitions that would choose to differentiate based on this metric.

I just read the Wikipedia article on left/right and found it completely out of sync with my internalized model. I wouldn't go as far to say it is 'wrong' but I certainly didn't find it as a useful description of what I've experienced.

So much of the divisiveness we see today seems to be predicated on entirely false understandings of the "other" and a complete lack of agreement on basic terms and concepts. Left/Right is just one example.

Re: Resignation Letter

#584
Content that has the right to exist based on free speech protections does not by extension have the right to exist on any/all platforms. Different publishing platforms have standards they hold themselves to. For arguments sake, the NY Times does not generally allow white nationalists to write Op-Eds espousing their POVs, without clear messaging around context. White nationalism lies outside the NYTimes unique Overton window.

Its my view that 'cancel culture' isn't a new phenomenon; in the past, those with views outside the Overton window were not 'cancelled' per-se, they were instead 'pre-cancelled', by never being allowed to attain prominent statuses in the first place (how many KKK members were members of the NYTimes Op-Ed board; was their exclusion a result of cancel culture?). IMO 'cancel culture' is the effect of the Overton window moving more quickly than in the past, where individuals who have been able to attain prominent positions now find themselves outside the shifted Overton window. So the fact that this is happening to thinkers of prominent status is new, but excluding views outside the Overton window (the fundamental bit) is not.

I draw the distinction, because in my mind there are two debates to be had; (1) cancel culture is a new phenomenon and is anti-ethical to the ideals of free speech that American society has espoused in the past, and (2) cancel culture is not new but instead the Overton window has shrunk, and is shifting more quickly.

Anecdotally I see many arguments that reject 'cancel-culture' with the logic of (1); exclusion of voices/ideas is a result of a new phenomenon ('cancel culture'), and by relying on a large dose of appealing to tradition (America has never "cancelled" voices before) we can therefore reject any exclusion as a-priori wrong. If we argue instead within the context of (2), one cannot say that exclusion of ideas is a-prori wrong, instead one has to defend whether a particular idea deserves to be included/excluded from the Overton window.

Re: Resignation Letter

#585
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If by critical you mean reporting what he does and what he says, then yes. That's probably around 97%. Why you think the above is somehow editorialized, I don't know. I think most mainstream news outlets do an incredible job maintaining their calm while reporting truly absurd and dangerously ignorant actions of the current US President.

Question: Have you watched the news, instead of just reading it online? You can't go to any outlet (CNN, MSNBC, NBC, even Fox) without a couple snippets of dialogue from whatever's been recorded and then five or so 'experts' editorializing it.

Yes that's probably why I don't watch news on TV

Re: Resignation Letter

#586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is why I support publishing such an op-ed despite disagreeing with it. It allows us to debate and attack the idea, without letting it fester and hide. Bad ideas should be argued against this way, not de-platformed entirely. If you're so certain the ideas would be defeated then why not hand out copies of the Turner Diaries to every citizen? Why is racism still around when a true marketplace of ideas would have d…

Again, it was an opinion held by 58% of America (using military to quell looting and property destruction), by a US Senator. Op-eds are the opinion of the writer - that's why they are in the Opinion page. You are acting like Tom Cotton was advocating for some extreme far-right minority view held by only a tiny fraction of insane people, rather than the majority opinion.

So an idea is automatically moral if a majority of people approve of it?

Re: Resignation Letter

#587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this rebuttal is that it assumes that the high–level writers and editors are not themselves the illiberal and anti–speech proponents, gatekeeping what perspectives are allowed to be represented in the first place. For example: Harper's Magazine, which published the recent open letter on cancel culture that Bari Weiss signed, doesn't pay its interns [1], ensuring that only those who can afford to work…

wow... you are literally embodying the cancel culture by claiming that their opinion is irrelevant because of some HR pay practice you discovered that is totally orthogonal to the conversation? Should we cancel your opinion because of some seemingly inconsistent opinion you had in your comment history? This is exactly the practice of arguing the arguer, rather than the argument, and it's a bad faith tactic.

> This is exactly the practice of arguing the arguer, rather than the argument, and it's a bad faith tactic.

Her claim is that she, herself, is being exceptionally victimized and silenced; it’s literally impossible rebut this without arguing against her, specifically.

Harper’s’ unpaid internships was a more general example. Had I been speaking about Bari Weiss specifically, I might have mentioned her support for deplatforming a Jewish speaker from Stanford [1], her attempts to get Arab professors fired [2] or her reports to other employees’ bosses in response to minor slights [3].

And even if my argument were to hinge on an orthogonal claim, you think that’s tantamount to “embodying cancel culture”? I haven’t called for any personal or professional consequences; literally all I’m doing is disagreeing with her.

This is why so many roll their eyes when people start waxing on about cancel culture. What they really mean is that they don’t want to hear criticism of their opinions.

[1] https://twitter.com/bariweiss/status/1125789271959277569?s=2...

[2] https://theintercept.com/2018/03/08/the-nyts-bari-weiss-fals...

[3] https://twitter.com/byjoelanderson/status/126865430820500684...

Re: Resignation Letter

#588
post #39

"And so self-censorship has become the norm." This might be the most ironic and most dangerous effect of this "right think" regime: that the free expression and exchange of ideas is thwarted in advance because one doesn't want to deal with drama, fight, or insults that come with saying something not in lock-step with the prevailing group-think. This blunts the curiosity of the intellect and silences all true disciple…

I’ll add some ideas. I hope you can accept them.

I think you and a number of other posters have alluded to or directly referenced a “progressive agenda”. And, others have mentioned attacks on “freedom”.

To me, those are some powerful and emotional phrases. And, they’re also so vague and able to encompass pretty much everything that one doesn’t agree with. To me, as someone with casual knowledge of linguistic manipulation, this seems very suspicious and designed.

Then, there’s the fact that I believe I’m a moderate. I have a subscription to the NYT. I like it. I think the journalism and writing are top notch. I generally skip the opinion page because it’s pretty boring, but when I do read it, I think it’s a often a bit tailored to the most ardent of NYT subscribers.

Because I’m a NYT subscriber, I’m often called a “progressive”, Apparently, because I’m against racism and other forms of individual oppression, I’m also considered a “progressive”. They don’t seem to care if I’m for state’s rights (I’m American) or low taxes or capitalism Or rights to firearms, or anything.

What if you’re being manipulated by a influence operation? Why do I say this? Because I genuinely try to empathize with The people who call me this (on-line, at work, family members, etc.) But, instead of giving me specific details, they just cite things that are completely unrelated to me: Antifa, Soros, Bill Gates, or whatever the buzz is that week. And, eventually they grumble some more about “freedom” and drop it.

So, here’s an opportunity for you. Lay down a believe that’s so controversial, that you think it will be censored and oppressed, and I promise to read it and empathize with your point of view. And, I’m sure others will, too.

Re: Resignation Letter

#589
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly who else is going to cover the % of negative media coverage on Trump, in your mind, other than a "right wing" source?

An academic source that can describe a pre-propoosed methodology and doesn't have the appearance of being explicitly anti-CNN. You can't seriously think that "the only people we can believe are people who openly call CNN hacks". That's just an admission that you only believe people who agree with you. Put another way: there was a recent article on HN about using sources who you had uncertainty about, because those so…

Lol, what?

So were you able to find a "academic source" that audited the media in this way?

Re: Resignation Letter

#590
post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"No true Scotsman." Really? And I'm not sure how bad you think the rioting and looting was, but in Minnesota (mostly Minneapolis) alone, the economic loss is already estimated at $500 million dollars, with over one thousand businesses affected, and many were destroyed. Source: https://emmer.house.gov/_cache/files/b/c/bc0f4be4-4618-4786-...

That's not No True Scotsman. It's fact. The FBI did not pin any illegal activity on antifa. Cotton had absolutely no evidence to back his claim. While I obviously don't know everyone who participated in looting, in NYC where I live the looters were nowhere near the organized protests. https://www.businessinsider.com/fbi-no-intelligence-antifa-w...

First, reporting a lack of intelligence that directly links those actions to Antifa, especially only a week after the first protest, does not mean there was no direct link. But have a counterpoint, from some people who already had some intelligence: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/law-enfo...

> "U.S. police officials said they are examining both local and out-of-state actors focused on creating damage and inciting violent confrontations with police (and possibly other protesters) in the name of anarchist and antifa causes."

> "They prepared to commit property damage and directed people who were following them that this should be done selectively and only in wealthier areas or at high-end stores run by corporate entities."

> "And they developed a complex network of bicycle scouts to move ahead of demonstrators in different directions of where police were and where police were not for purposes of being able to direct groups from the larger group to places where they could commit acts of vandalism including the torching of police vehicles and Molotov cocktails where they thought officers would not be."

Beyond even Antifa and similar groups, my first point is largely about the statement "garden variety robbers unassociated with any political group."

There have been many protests throughout America's history. Most of them are done peacefully. Clearly most of them do not approach the level of violence and destruction that the recent riots and looting accomplished--riots and looting that coincided with those protests. Are we to believe this is largely coincidence?

The images and videos of the damage and looting that was done are out there. Windows, doors, and even entire buildings destroyed and ransacked, with "F* cops", "F* 12", "ACAB", &c. scrawled on the remains. Smashing, grabbing, chanting, it's all out there. There was obviously a political statement meant by many if not most of those people. This is made even more obvious when there are political groups that make statements such as: "By any means necessary", "No justice, no peace", "Give us what we want or we'll burn down the system", &c.

These are obviously politically-motivated actions. You cannot bear witness to all of the radical statements that have been made, also bear witness to the radical acts carried out and publicly supported, and then say the two are not related.

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