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U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

bloomberg.com

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Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#101

Post by haecceity »

balls187 wrote: post #60
maddyboo wrote: post #15

Can someone explain how foreign students taking online classes gives them ‘full rein’ and is a threat to national security? > ICE also contends that a full slate of virtual coursework compromises national security by giving foreign students free rein within the U.S., and says a freeze would undermine “the deference afforded administrative agencies in complex and interrelated fields like immigration enforcement.”

ICE stated they would have "free rein" not "full rein." The argument is essentially that by allowing students to take online classes, they are free to travel anywhere within the united states. With mandatory in person classes, they would be restricted to being near campus. The federal government would have a harder time keeping track of students, as their schools would no longer really have an idea if the students ar…

We want foreign students to experience freedom and liberty in America.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#102

Post by japhyr »

aahhahahaaa wrote: post #72
japhyr wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whether or not they know it They know exactly what they're doing. Trump plays the ignorant fool so cruel and heartless policies can be put in place efficiently, and supportive policies can be undone efficiently. I don't think Trump is a bright individual, but he is definitely accomplishing what he set out to accomplish. Most people just aren't used to a president actively undermining their own country.

I'm uncertain. It seems possible that many of these people think they're doing good things?

They sure do. We have a White House filled with white supremacists and career grifters. All of these people think they're doing good things; they just have a different idea than I do of who deserves "good things".

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#105

Post by scarface74 »

ryanmarsh wrote: post #31
nine_zeros wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But this should never have been an issue to begin with, think of all the unnecessary stress and anxiety this has caused for the hundreds of thousands of international students impacted by this. More importantly, the long term damage is done. The noise was heard loud and clear that America is only as competent as its leader. Prospective future students are likely going to be ultra careful before choosing this countr…

loud and clear that America is only as competent as its leader The courts proved exactly the opposite. The system of checks and balances worked. I don't follow your assertion.

Until the next judge -appointed by the President —gets to decide and rubber stamps his decision.

Depending on judges with lifetime appointments isn’t a good system.

Why could this decision be made in the first place by non elected officials? Why didn’t such a drastic decision have to be passed via the legislative process?

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#106

Post by selimthegrim »

tomp wrote: post #92
yingw787 wrote: post #65

Yeah this isn't a viable way to formulate public policy. It isn't new either, happened with the travel ban early on. Soft power, and even the viability of a country, depends on certain long-term guarantees, guarantees that the current administration has blown away completely. I'm pessimistic that even if a change in administration occurs early next year (and that is a major if), there would be anything any administra…

Us dearh rate is pretty low and excess deaths are almost back to zero. The problematic outlier is just NYC, where the problem was arguably exacerbated by Democratic mayor encouraging NewYorkers to party in Chinatown end of January. Overall Trump’s response was decent. Edit: Looks like this triggered a few people. Low mortality rate: https://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-visualization/?chart=countr... Excess deaths almost…

Have you been watching TV about Miami and Houston lately?

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#107

Post by gen220 »

nonce42 wrote: post #77
atonse wrote: post #6

Excellent. The system worked this time. People challenged executive branch action through the judicial system and the executive branch backed down. But this should never have been an issue to begin with, think of all the unnecessary stress and anxiety this has caused for the hundreds of thousands of international students impacted by this.

>The system worked this time. I view the phrase "the system worked" as a red flag indicating that things went wrong in a way they shouldn't, not a positive thing. A successful outcome doesn't necessarily indicate things are fine. A canonical example is the Space Shuttle boosters. The O-rings were supposed to block all the hot gases, but there was some gas leakage and erosion of the O-rings. Nothing bad happened and o…

As it turns out, there were in fact engineers who recognized that the O rings were eroding and that this was dangerous. They even tried to communicate this fact to the people with launch cancelling authority. But they weren’t able to communicate it effectively enough to prevent the launch.

Apparently, all of the engineers knew intuitively that the problem was real and critical, but weren’t able to communicate it to their superiors, who lacked the same intuitive grounding. They failed to visualize the data convincingly, and the launch went as planned.

It was an example of the system working, until people ignored the warnings about the O-rings. That decision to move on, rather than to investigate critically, was the moment when the system shifted from working to failing.

Edward Tufte wrote a really convincing treatment of this in “The Visual Design of Quantitative Information, and Envisioning Information“, to motivate the importance of proper visualizations.

You can read a blog with the visualizations here [1] but I really recommend the book!

[1] https://www.asktog.com/books/challengerExerpt.html

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#108

Post by kabdib »

protastus wrote: post #97
atonse wrote: post #6

Excellent. The system worked this time. People challenged executive branch action through the judicial system and the executive branch backed down. But this should never have been an issue to begin with, think of all the unnecessary stress and anxiety this has caused for the hundreds of thousands of international students impacted by this.

The backup worked this time. This is akin to a safety system taking over and restoring stability, despite a major component failure. From the outside, things "worked" but backups are designed for extraordinary and rare circumstances, not for continuous use.

Or a safety system, like an airbag.

Not something you want to be triggering as a matter of course or to be proud of having done so, ever.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#109

Post by thecleaner »

ngngngng wrote: post #104

A well known religious University near me just started offering "in person" (wink wink) classes where attendance would not be taken. I was proud to see it.

I guess they understand that behind all the symbolism religion should be about welfare. Kudos.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#110

Post by vkou »

scarface74 wrote: post #105
ryanmarsh wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

loud and clear that America is only as competent as its leader The courts proved exactly the opposite. The system of checks and balances worked. I don't follow your assertion.

Until the next judge -appointed by the President —gets to decide and rubber stamps his decision. Depending on judges with lifetime appointments isn’t a good system. Why could this decision be made in the first place by non elected officials? Why didn’t such a drastic decision have to be passed via the legislative process?

> Why didn’t such a drastic decision have to be passed via the legislative process?

The legislature can stop pretty much any form of bad executive overreach, by passing a bill.

The problem is that (enough of) the legislature did not want to stop this.

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