German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving • Hacker News Board

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#301

Post by w0utert » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 8:05 PM UTC

lazyjones wrote: post #243

Aunche wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you driven a modern ICE? I rented a new Honda Accord this weekend. Besides the Model 3's crazy acceleration, and automatic lane changing, I think the Accord matches or exceeds a Model 3 in every single way, and it's roughly half the price. This isn't to say Teslas aren't impressive, but I do think they're overhyped.

> Besides the Model 3's crazy acceleration, and automatic lane changing, I think the Accord matches or exceeds a Model 3 in every single way Except noise, pollution, complexity/maintenance cost, OTA updates, large touchscreen navigation that gets updated continuously, having to visit gas stations etc. etc. ICE is just obsolete technology. Half the performance at 10 times the noise and infinitely more pollution.

Not saying that Tesla makes bad cars or that electric vehicles are not the future, but you have to realise that the things you mention are not necessarily things everyone cares about or even appreciates. For many people all Tesla cars are way out of their budget for example, or not big enough, or they don't like the interior finish, or they actually enjoy the sound of a powerful ICE, or they don't like longer charging times and need/want longer range, or they like to be able to work on their own cars or take them to their preferred repair shop for maintenance, or they have a brand affinity and want to wait for an electric model of their favoured manufacturer, etc.

Even in spite of all the good things about Tesla's, the list of reasons people could have to not want buy a Tesla is endless.

This is not even considering the fact that some people (myself included) won't even consider a Tesla just for Musk's antics alone.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#302

Post by richardrk » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 8:06 PM UTC

croes wrote: post #61

antpls wrote: post #38

That's hypocrisy from the German court. This is 100% a push from German car industry lobby. Note that the case wasn't started from consumer complaints, it was instead started by an industrial group. I bet all Tesla buyers are aware about what they are actually buying. They can return the car and get a refund if they are not pleased with it. This ban is bullshit considering that many ads in many industries are decepti…

Some of the tesla car accidents prove the opposite.

Exactly! Here is something to support that: https://www.tesladeaths.com/

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#303

Post by subsubzero » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 8:06 PM UTC

Auto-pilot is disingenuous at best, it should be labelled "driving assist" or something similar. I remember that one person in florida[1] where they died by having their tesla on "auto-pilot" and a tractor trailer truck collided and killed them while they were watching Harry Potter and not driving with their attention on the road. Would this person have died if the Auto-pilot feature was named something different? Who can say as people do dumb things on the road, but it could lead tesla to future lawsuits from similar events.

[1] - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/01/tesla-dri...

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#304

Post by fsloth » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 8:06 PM UTC

birdyrooster wrote: post #228

Shivetya wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bought one in spite of Musk, simply put the technology of the car and that it brought back memories as a kid of all the cool concept cars that never got built sold me. That is performs so well it just a bonus. I feel like I am driving the future day in and day out. However I think that only does Musk misrepresent what the technology is capable of and the timeline I think that many quality of life features are missi…

People using their childhood dreams as an excuse to be functional sociopaths doesn't cut it. https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/9/30/20891314/elon-musk-... https://www.elonmusk.today

Are you a psychiatrist?

I'd prefer people are called out for the bad things they do rather than get called by this or that psychiatric diagnostic term.

Being diagnozed a sociopath is not a bad thing. Doing bad things is a bad thing, any psychiatric diagnosis or not.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#305

Post by JJMcJ » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 8:08 PM UTC

seppel wrote: post #239

JJMcJ wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, just the common understanding of autopilot for aircraft. I assume, just like with cars, things can happen quickly with a boat.

> No, just the common understanding of autopilot for aircraft. The autopilot for a aircraft does whatever it is supposed to do without human supervision. If you turn on keep heading, it will keep the heading (within physical limitations). I guess it is similar for a boat. Lane assist, however, requires constant human supervision because it is just an assistant. I think this is the important difference that needs to b…

I agree, and Tesla's "autopilot" was just lane keeping and adaptive cruise control along with a bit of collision avoidance.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#306

Post by the_mitsuhiko » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 8:08 PM UTC

dlivingston wrote: post #149

kabes wrote: post #76

Not a lot of companies can get away with selling $6000 packages on which they'll never be able to deliver.

The Full Self Driving package is actually quite good. With the exception of going “hands free”, this is an accurate video on the current state of FSD: https://youtu.be/tlThdr3O5Qo

Definitely not in Germany. It won’t even take sharp turns.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#307

Post by OliverJones » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 8:10 PM UTC

dkonofalski wrote: post #3

I agree with this wholeheartedly, even as a Tesla owner. Tesla goofed from the beginning by calling tech like "Autosteer" and "Traffic Assisted Cruise Control" under the moniker "Autopilot" while shifting everything above that to "Full Self-Driving". They should have called it "CoPilot" since that infers that you're still the driver in charge of controlling the vehicle and it would have had exactly the same reception…

I too have a Tesla vehicle, and I too agree with this German regulator's decision. You CAN'T climb from the driver's seat to the back seat and take a nap while the car is running. And that's because lane holding and adaptive cruise control are not reliable enough.

"Autopilot" is deceptive. In aviation, it's hard to engage an autopilot until you have a desired altitude, heading, and speed. And that's in the sky, far from guard rails and hopefully far from other traffic.

Oh, and by the way, before you do any of that you have to go to school, pass a rigorous practical test, get your hands on an airplane with autopilot, put fuel in it, get cleared for taxi, takeoff, climbout and cruise. There are some hurdles to jump over.

I wish they had used some other word to brand this stuff.

And, they've been saying "Level 5 this year" for a few years now. This is the kind of hype that got us the "AI Winter" back in the 1970s. Let's not go there again.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#308

Post by ummonk » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 8:11 PM UTC

ojnabieoot wrote: post #21

dkonofalski wrote: post #3

I agree with this wholeheartedly, even as a Tesla owner. Tesla goofed from the beginning by calling tech like "Autosteer" and "Traffic Assisted Cruise Control" under the moniker "Autopilot" while shifting everything above that to "Full Self-Driving". They should have called it "CoPilot" since that infers that you're still the driver in charge of controlling the vehicle and it would have had exactly the same reception…

> Tesla goofed from the beginning by calling tech like "Autosteer" and "Traffic Assisted Cruise Control" under the moniker "Autopilot" I am not accusing you specifically of using weak language, but let's call a spade a spade: it's not a "goof," it's a dangerous and deceptive business practice. It's one that Elon Musk is directly responsible for and directly encouraged with misleading statements where he deliberately…

The people who claim airplane autopilots work similarly are flat out lying. Pilots can briefly take their attention away from the plane without issue. They have to be present and ready to intervene but not constantly closely monitoring what the aircraft is doing. There is a very real difference in the amount of attention required.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#309

Post by mikelyons » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 8:11 PM UTC

dkonofalski wrote: post #3

I agree with this wholeheartedly, even as a Tesla owner. Tesla goofed from the beginning by calling tech like "Autosteer" and "Traffic Assisted Cruise Control" under the moniker "Autopilot" while shifting everything above that to "Full Self-Driving". They should have called it "CoPilot" since that infers that you're still the driver in charge of controlling the vehicle and it would have had exactly the same reception…

This is how evolution works though, he described it himself. "There will be death, there will be some outcry, and [regulation will step in to move the evolution in the direction of absolute Good] ..."

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#310

Post by ojnabieoot » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 8:11 PM UTC

lazyjones wrote: post #199

ojnabieoot wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tesla goofed from the beginning by calling tech like "Autosteer" and "Traffic Assisted Cruise Control" under the moniker "Autopilot" I am not accusing you specifically of using weak language, but let's call a spade a spade: it's not a "goof," it's a dangerous and deceptive business practice. It's one that Elon Musk is directly responsible for and directly encouraged with misleading statements where he deliberately…

> It is true that highly knowledgeable people know that Musk is an idiot conman The same "highly knowledgable people" who have been shorting TSLA and parroting that the company is going broke any moment now, surely. I'm actually surprised people aren't ashamed to write such utter nonsense in a place like HN.

Look I really don't have a dog in the $TSLA or Tesla fight - I have no investments in the stock market and due to a disability I cannot drive a car. My grievance is with celebrity CEO worship, and in giving CEO credit for labor's accomplishments (which is particularly egregious in the case of SpaceX).

Being an idiot conman and being a technical genius are not mutually exclusive. And clearly being an idiot conman and being the CEO of a valuable company aren't mutually exclusive. Musk's idiotic conning has repeatedly gotten Tesla into serious legal trouble, including running a con - and it's a plain con job - about Tesla's autonomous vehicle capabilities. I know I am being mean to Elon by calling him an idiot and if I were trying to be neutral I might say "recklessly dishonest." But facts are facts.