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U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

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Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#31

Post by ryanmarsh »

nine_zeros wrote: post #14
atonse wrote: post #6

Excellent. The system worked this time. People challenged executive branch action through the judicial system and the executive branch backed down. But this should never have been an issue to begin with, think of all the unnecessary stress and anxiety this has caused for the hundreds of thousands of international students impacted by this.

> But this should never have been an issue to begin with, think of all the unnecessary stress and anxiety this has caused for the hundreds of thousands of international students impacted by this. More importantly, the long term damage is done. The noise was heard loud and clear that America is only as competent as its leader. Prospective future students are likely going to be ultra careful before choosing this countr…

loud and clear that America is only as competent as its leader

The courts proved exactly the opposite. The system of checks and balances worked. I don't follow your assertion.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#33

Post by sitkack »

farnsworth wrote: post #10
ardit33 wrote: post #7

Is this administration very incompetent, or very sadistic? If they rescinded the order, means they: 1) Didn't think through the consequences, or the legality of the order. 2) They just wanted to crate some chaos, and mess up with the foreign kids, while posturing to their base 3) Force universities to stay open in the middle of the pandemic in order to help Trump's reelection bid... (not sure how breakouts of covid i…

2 is the answer. They probably hardly cared whether the rule was successfully implemented. They succeeded in spreading FUD and in the future, prospective international students will think twice before deciding to study in the US. The damage is done.

Lots of top tier universities are already opening foreign campuses. Future students will just end up there. This move accelerated the rise of foreign top tier mind work at the expense of that work in the USA. Couple this with the antagonistic stance by the administration to foreign highly capable workers and you have a recipe for a tech softening in the USA.

This is good for the world. Part of me sees this as a cynical ploy to tear down others' futures to support the base. I do think the US needs massive education reform, costs are through the roof and large universities are farming foreign students but this isn't the way to do it.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#34

Post by aahhahahaaa »

Whether or not they know it, this administration is constantly floating out test balloons for outright evil nonsense... and I think some of it slips through simply because everyone's exhausted by it.

It's going to take at least a decade to fix what they've broken at this point, and if they end up appointing just 1 more Supreme Court justice it's going to take the rest of our lives.

I still see people (people I know exist and aren't bots!) saying they aren't voting for Biden on Twitter, and I'm honestly not sure how they're interpreting reality. They're not saying it, but I suspect they think that the destruction of the country would be a good thing. Like some sort of imaginary revolution is going to rise from the ashes.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#35

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

maddyboo wrote: post #15

Can someone explain how foreign students taking online classes gives them ‘full rein’ and is a threat to national security? > ICE also contends that a full slate of virtual coursework compromises national security by giving foreign students free rein within the U.S., and says a freeze would undermine “the deference afforded administrative agencies in complex and interrelated fields like immigration enforcement.”

No, and I doubt ICE can either. It's normal in this stage of a lawsuit to just throw out every argument you can brainstorm regardless of whether it makes much sense.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#36

Post by munificent »

ardit33 wrote: post #7

Is this administration very incompetent, or very sadistic? If they rescinded the order, means they: 1) Didn't think through the consequences, or the legality of the order. 2) They just wanted to crate some chaos, and mess up with the foreign kids, while posturing to their base 3) Force universities to stay open in the middle of the pandemic in order to help Trump's reelection bid... (not sure how breakouts of covid i…

It's both, actually.

Hamfisted malice.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#37

Post by ptmcc »

ryanmarsh wrote: post #31
nine_zeros wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But this should never have been an issue to begin with, think of all the unnecessary stress and anxiety this has caused for the hundreds of thousands of international students impacted by this. More importantly, the long term damage is done. The noise was heard loud and clear that America is only as competent as its leader. Prospective future students are likely going to be ultra careful before choosing this countr…

loud and clear that America is only as competent as its leader The courts proved exactly the opposite. The system of checks and balances worked. I don't follow your assertion.

We've been testing these checks and balances a heck of a lot lately, and they haven't always worked.

And even when they do, the fear and confusion caused in the meantime in a case like this is devastating to many thousands of people.

It is not normal nor good for an administration to be floating so many terrible and illegal ideas so regularly.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#38

Post by nine_zeros »

ryanmarsh wrote: post #31
nine_zeros wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But this should never have been an issue to begin with, think of all the unnecessary stress and anxiety this has caused for the hundreds of thousands of international students impacted by this. More importantly, the long term damage is done. The noise was heard loud and clear that America is only as competent as its leader. Prospective future students are likely going to be ultra careful before choosing this countr…

loud and clear that America is only as competent as its leader The courts proved exactly the opposite. The system of checks and balances worked. I don't follow your assertion.

> The courts proved exactly the opposite. The system of checks and balances worked. I don't follow your assertion.

The courts worked as a balance. But they can only do as much as the laws allow. The tendency of the executive is heard loud and clear. No serious student would want to jeopardize their lives in an environment and society that displays xenophobia.

I cannot explain it much better than this https://themargins.substack.com/p/the-international-student-...

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#39

Post by georgeek »

HenryKissinger wrote: post #17
nine_zeros wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But this should never have been an issue to begin with, think of all the unnecessary stress and anxiety this has caused for the hundreds of thousands of international students impacted by this. More importantly, the long term damage is done. The noise was heard loud and clear that America is only as competent as its leader. Prospective future students are likely going to be ultra careful before choosing this countr…

The number of foreign students is at an all-time high.

The effect will only be seen in the future, smoothed over a few years.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#40

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

nine_zeros wrote: post #38
ryanmarsh wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

loud and clear that America is only as competent as its leader The courts proved exactly the opposite. The system of checks and balances worked. I don't follow your assertion.

> The courts proved exactly the opposite. The system of checks and balances worked. I don't follow your assertion. The courts worked as a balance. But they can only do as much as the laws allow. The tendency of the executive is heard loud and clear. No serious student would want to jeopardize their lives in an environment and society that displays xenophobia. I cannot explain it much better than this https://themargi…

I'm not disputing that it's bad, but I'm not really convinced it's the death of American international student programs either. A student looking for a country with no xenophobia is bound to be disappointed no matter where they go. The article you referenced seems to largely agree with my perspective, noting that "there are still millions of people who’d do anything to come to this country".
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