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German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

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Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#191

Post by Symbiote »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #168
nemothekid wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. I'm saying Tesla is successful because of Elon's hype. They are not "forgiving" his misgivings, they fully believe Elon will solve world hunger and invent FTL space travel. If you ask anyone who's bought into Tesla, they will tell you the "Auto Pilot on airplanes" lie, but they also believe Elon will deliver on Level 5 Autonomous driving. No cares about electric cars, they care about the guy's company who is usin…

What's the autopilot on airplanes lie? If you said "misdirection" or something, I would fully understand. But what's untrue about saying that plane autopilot is pretty limited?

The man on the Clapham omnibus [1] thinks aeroplane autopilot pretty much flies the plane, with the pilot just watching. That's what is relevant to Tesla's marketing material, and they are surely fully aware of this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_man_on_the_Clapham_omnibus

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#192

Post by ReidZB »

dlivingston wrote: post #149
kabes wrote: post #76

Not a lot of companies can get away with selling $6000 packages on which they'll never be able to deliver.

The Full Self Driving package is actually quite good. With the exception of going “hands free”, this is an accurate video on the current state of FSD: https://youtu.be/tlThdr3O5Qo

Another huge difference: the current FSD feature set will not make turns at intersections as demonstrated in this video. It now (as of recently) can be configured to automatically stop at appropriate traffic signage (stop signs, red/yellow lights, not sure about yields). However, it won't make a left or right turn.

Some caveats: sometimes it will still want to stop at a green light, in my experience, and requires a manual override; and, if you're the foremost car in your lane at a traffic light, it won't begin moving on its own. I assume the same is true for stop signs.

I guess that video is intended to be a preview of what the current software could do with all the driver interaction safety switches off (no required hands on wheel, no requirement to confirm safety through intersections/turns, etc) and all the internal feature flags turned on (particularly: enabling turns and enabling Navigate on Autopilot on non-freeways).

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#193

Post by fluffything »

Nagyman wrote: post #140
uniqueid wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver. My my, that is brazen!

"have the hardware needed" ... being legalese/marketing speak for "the hardware may indeed be capable, but the software is not (yet)". So they're gearing people to expect the full self-driving capability, _eventually_. Shady to say the least.

That marketing was not misleading, it was and still is a lie. They have upgraded the hardware at least 3 times already.

The first time this lie might have been just sheer incompetence. But after three upgrades, I can only assume that the lie is malicious and negligent.

Musk has been claiming that his "fleet" of 10,000 robotaxis will arrive next year for a couple of years already. I mean, he is going to be right eventually.

But Tesla's competition, e.g., NVIDIA et al., are claiming that for full-self driving we'll at least need hardware with an order of magnitude more TOPs than what the current generation provides, and that we won't see that hardware before 2022-2023. They are also not promising that this hardware will suffice, only that they are pretty sure that it cannot be done without it.

I'm skeptical of Tesla's claims to say the least, but I guess we'll see. Statistically speaking, Musk predictions about when we are going to see full-self driving have been 100% wrong to date.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#195

Post by PeterStuer »

Nagyman wrote: post #140
uniqueid wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver. My my, that is brazen!

"have the hardware needed" ... being legalese/marketing speak for "the hardware may indeed be capable, but the software is not (yet)". So they're gearing people to expect the full self-driving capability, _eventually_. Shady to say the least.

How do you know the hardware is sufficient before you achieve the "full self driving" goal?

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#196

Post by elandrum »

patd wrote: post #119
elandrum wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sure does get them a lot of attention though! My Jeep Cherokee has lane assist, adaptive cruise control, auto-parking, and crash detection (emergency braking) but they don’t get all this press about it.

Maybe because it’s not the same ? I don’t own a Jeep but Lane assist typically means warning the user if you drive over the line. Tesla steers by itself and more. Adaptive Cruise Control typically works only above a given speed. Tesla’s does work at low speed too. At least Tesla cars seem to do more than the German cars I have driven before.

Ah sorry, I was conflating two technologies (which are basically the same in my model). "Available LaneSense® Lane Departure Warning with Lane Keep Assist alerts you with visual and audible warnings during unintentional lane drifts and corrects your vehicle back into its lane."

I get a visual (and optional audio -- which I disabled) warning and a little steering wheel resistance to bring it back into the middle of the lane.

While I'm not sure what the minimum speed for adaptive cruise control is, but I use it in freeway stop & go traffic often.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#197

Post by lazyjones »

nemothekid wrote: post #93
typon wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's strange how much people will bend over backwards to give Musk the benefit of doubt when he openly lies about such things

Tesla is one part car company, one part battery company, and 5 parts marketing hype. The only reason people are seriously contemplating buying full electric cars today instead of the bullshit BMW produced is because Iron Man convinced enough people that electric cars will simultaneously fly to mars and cure world hunger. The stock reflects this. In other words, there is no Tesla without Elon's meme machine. The grave…

> The only reason people are seriously contemplating buying full electric cars today instead of the bullshit BMW produced is because Iron Man convinced enough people that electric cars will simultaneously fly to mars and cure world hunger.

Is this supposed to be ironic or do you actually believe this drivel?

Drive a modern EV and try again. Most Tesla owners will never go back to a noisy, smelly, crappy, slow ICE.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#198

Post by itsoktocry »

sergiosgc wrote: post #165
nemothekid wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have, and I also adore the cars, my next car will likely be a Tesla and I own the stock. I've spent a lot of time researching the company so I didn't come to this conclusion by being bitter over the company. I think it's important to point out that the success of the company is largely built on the mythos of the man rather than the objective success of the cars. Tesla, earlier this week reached a market cap exceedi…

I personally think the stock market is bonkers about Tesla. It's a local effect over the possibility of entering the S&P, maybe some short squeeze and possibly expectations about new tech on battery day. Having said that, I think the relative valuation can be supported without any of those outlandish claims. Tesla produces about 300k vehicles a year. Toyota produces 30x that. However, the demand over Teslas meant the…

>However, the demand over Teslas meant they almost did not feel any demand impact because of Covid, while Toyota saw a 30% demand drop.

Tesla doesn't even define what a "delivery" is (remember factory-gated?), nor do I believe any numbers that come out of China, so I'm skeptical that they weren't affected by Covid-19. Personally, I think they "delivered" a number to ensure the stock analysts are appeased.

If demand is through the roof, and profits are negligent, what have they cut Model Y prices already?

>if Toyota continues to fumble the technology transition

Toyota pioneered, and continues to sell, hybrid electric vehicles (fuel cell, too). Pure BEVs have many issues (including cost), so it isn't like the market has 100% decided on the technology yet.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#199

Post by lazyjones »

ojnabieoot wrote: post #21
dkonofalski wrote: post #3

I agree with this wholeheartedly, even as a Tesla owner. Tesla goofed from the beginning by calling tech like "Autosteer" and "Traffic Assisted Cruise Control" under the moniker "Autopilot" while shifting everything above that to "Full Self-Driving". They should have called it "CoPilot" since that infers that you're still the driver in charge of controlling the vehicle and it would have had exactly the same reception…

> Tesla goofed from the beginning by calling tech like "Autosteer" and "Traffic Assisted Cruise Control" under the moniker "Autopilot" I am not accusing you specifically of using weak language, but let's call a spade a spade: it's not a "goof," it's a dangerous and deceptive business practice. It's one that Elon Musk is directly responsible for and directly encouraged with misleading statements where he deliberately…

> It is true that highly knowledgeable people know that Musk is an idiot conman

The same "highly knowledgable people" who have been shorting TSLA and parroting that the company is going broke any moment now, surely.

I'm actually surprised people aren't ashamed to write such utter nonsense in a place like HN.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#200

Post by nolok »

Robotbeat wrote: post #188

I think it’s poor for “autopilot.” That word has a long history. It really is the best existing word to use. But a fair ruling for “autonomous.” And I think the concerns HN people have with “autopilot” are in part due to the fact that the terms have not been properly contrasted by Tesla. Being more careful with “autonomous” and “self-driving” would help a lot with the confusion with the word “autopilot.”

> That word has a long history. It really is the best existing word to use.

Yeah except it doesn't seem to mean what you think it means

> equipment on an aircraft or ship to make it continue to travel in the correct direction by itself without needing a person to control it

Whenever a crash happened where the car went straight into a static thing, or failed to see splitting lanes and crashed in the wall, Tesla clearly clarified that their system was "needing a person to control it" at all time.

So no, Tesla driving help are not an autopilot, they're piloting help or copilot or whatever variant of that you want.

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