Resignation Letter • Hacker News Board

Re: Resignation Letter

#311

Post by jimbokun » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 5:27 PM UTC

banads wrote: post #285

jrumbut wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have 1,600 journalists last year that were sent to 150 countries [1]. What other organization is doing anything like that effort to gather facts around the world? Who is doing more collective discovery (and making it accessible to the public at a price an average person can afford)? I can only think of a handful of organizations that are serious candidates (Reuters? The BBC? Wikipedia?). Weird puff pieces, drama…

>alternative that does the work of collective discovery. The library

By buying a subscription to the Times for its patrons?

Re: Resignation Letter

#312

Post by jakelazaroff » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 5:29 PM UTC

istjohn wrote: post #295

jakelazaroff wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this rebuttal is that it assumes that the high–level writers and editors are not themselves the illiberal and anti–speech proponents, gatekeeping what perspectives are allowed to be represented in the first place. For example: Harper's Magazine, which published the recent open letter on cancel culture that Bari Weiss signed, doesn't pay its interns [1], ensuring that only those who can afford to work…

This is what-about-ism, not a substantive objection. One need not point out every obstacle to open debate in order to identify one important obstacle to open debate.

It's not what–about–ism because they're not neutral agents. I'm not saying "they say they want intellectual curiosity, but what about unpaid interns" — I'm saying "they say they want intellectual curiosity, but they are the ones actively preventing that from happening".

Re: Resignation Letter

#313

Post by slg » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 5:29 PM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #266

slg wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought that was clear from my previous comment, so I'm not sure how much clearer I can make it. She used the term "unlawful discrimination". She wants this behavior to stop. She is calling this behavior out as illegal. I don't think it is a leap to think that she wants this behavior that she is against and called illegal to be stopped by the law.

> My own forays into Wrongthink have made me the subject of constant bullying by colleagues who disagree with my views. They have called me a Nazi and a racist; I have learned to brush off comments about how I’m “writing about the Jews again.” Several colleagues perceived to be friendly with me were badgered by coworkers. My work and my character are openly demeaned on company-wide Slack channels where masthead edito…

Calling your climate change denying coworker a backwards dumb-ass is not illegal. You can of course be fired for that inappropriate behavior, but it isn't illegal. Weiss specifically called out this behavior as unlawful discrimination.

Also it is worth pointing out that Weiss's job was to voice opinions. It is entirely different for someone in that role to face backlash for their bad opinions than it is for someone in the role of let's say a mid-level software developer.

Re: Resignation Letter

#314

Post by megaman821 » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 5:30 PM UTC

some-guy wrote: post #109

mellosouls wrote: post #28

There seems to be more and more public acknowledgement (and in fora like this one) of the myriad leftist 1984-style attacks we are currently witnessing - every bit as bad as the McCarthy era led by the right. As appalling as the behaviour of these people is, that growing awareness can only be a good thing.

The woke-left isn't going around arresting people, nor do they have much (if any) influence in high levels of government.

They are bullying and harassing people, and trying to lump that in with "criticism". To make it worse, when they get called out on it, the left goes to victim blaming. It is just gross, like when people point out what a girl was wearing in a sexual assault case.

You can criticize, you can ignore and you can boycott. Instead too many people (look at the response to JK Rowling) are threatening death and rape. Or are harassing employers until they capitulate.

Re: Resignation Letter

#315

Post by orwin » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 5:30 PM UTC

banads wrote: post #282

api wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is an alternative. It is you and I. How do I tell the difference between an honest citizen journalist, a propagandist, a liar, a lunatic, or a troll? Conventional journalism of course is not perfectly trustworthy, but at least there is some penalty for extreme untrustworthiness in the form of loss of reputation of the paper and its brand. The NYT is an illustrative case. My opinion of that paper dropped signi…

>How do I tell the difference between an honest citizen journalist, a propagandist, a liar, a lunatic, or a troll? Critical thinking skills, independent research, and open dialogue

> Critical thinking skills

A lot of people stay at the dunning-Kruger peak on that for a very long time and over-evaluate their (i for sure did for several years at least).

> independent research

Those who have the time to do this for half the semi-important issues in the world are lucky(like most of of on HN i think). And i started 2 month ago informing myself about climate change and what does it mean to stop using oil, i did not have any time for myself between that and work until recently. Research takes a long, long time if you wnat to do it well. I'm still not certain about anything.

> open dialogue Yes if it mean what i think, this is very helpful. Paper journal used to offer opportunities for that.

Re: Resignation Letter

#316

Post by jimbokun » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 5:32 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #241

chasing wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, please. If you say dumb or offensive stuff, people are going to react. It's not the "right think regime" — it's people disagreeing, often with some extra acid if you're a high profile New York Times opinion columnist and readers don't feel you deserve that kind of an international platform for your words.

Lots of people are offended every day and they don't coalesce into slanderous mobs who demand the offender's termination. Further, these largely ignored offenses are generally much more overt than "accidentally making an 'ok' sign", "interviewing a black man who wishes there was more focus on violence in his community", "citing a prominent black researcher", "opening an Asian restaurant", "wearing a Chinese-inspired…

Kaepernick and Dixie Chicks are obvious examples of "cancel culture" coming from the right, and many people on the left are more than happy to practice this in the other direction, in spite of recognizing how wrong it was in those cases.

Re: Resignation Letter

#317

Post by minikites » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #223

minikites wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A majority of Americans supported the shooting of students at Kent State at the time, Americans are always thirsty for blood. That's not a compelling argument. >Some [students] were told that more students should have been killed to teach student protesters a lesson; some students were disowned by their families.

I think giving a platform to someone who is a sitting US Senator, who has an argument supported by the majority of Americans, in the supposed Newspaper of Record, isn't the craziest thing ever decided and should not have led to the editor's firing.

Why the appeal to authority? There are plenty of senators who don't believe in evolution and other basic principles of science. Publishing an anti-science op-ed from any of them would be just as harmful as Tom Cotton's incitement to violence.

Re: Resignation Letter

#318

Post by koheripbal » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

benlumen wrote: post #210

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #27

> Twitter is not on the masthead of The New York Times. But Twitter has become its ultimate editor. As the ethics and mores of that platform have become those of the paper, the paper itself has increasingly become a kind of performance space. Stories are chosen and told in a way to satisfy the narrowest of audiences, rather than to allow a curious public to read about the world and then draw their own conclusions. I…

It's the same story across journalism and I wrote about this exact phenomenon in the article I submitted yesterday - journalism had to please the social media, news aggregator and SEO algorithms to stay alive. They write and say what's popular to their audience and suitable for the tech platforms - not what's right.

...and this is why it is so vulnerable to foreign influence. An army of bots (human or programmed) can sway Twitter incredibly easily and drive outrage, which now seems will shape the US media narrative.

It's like they are intentionally steering the ship towards the rocks. I wonder who might be helping this effort... hmm... /s

Re: Resignation Letter

#319

Post by jimbokun » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

huzaif wrote: post #228

seibelj wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

58% of Americans supported sending in the military to stop looting and property destruction, including 37% of African Americans (a sizable minority). I would assume they wanted to prevent the city being burnt down rather than stop non-violent protests. https://www.newsweek.com/majority-americans-support-calling-... https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2020/06/02/58-o... When the protests are peaceful, you don…

That sizable minority are the only ones who have anything to lose from the looting and property destruction. Those that are impacted by racism and police violence, people without homes or jobs, likely don't want any Military involvement. Here is a pretty powerful message: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoDeVpvuEzI

"That sizable minority are the only ones who have anything to lose from the looting and property destruction."

And they deserve to have their opinions hear too, no?

Re: Resignation Letter

#320

Post by mikece » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

cygx wrote: post #269

mikece wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might be misremembering but I thought her appearance on the Joe Rogan podcast was cited by some as her making a fool of herself while trying to answer an honestly curious question by Joe (and I'm pretty sure she's been on since and will almost certainly be making a visit again soon as she's "news hot" right now which is the best time for an interview). As for the future of media, I wonder if long-form podcasting wh…

I might be misremembering but I thought her appearance on the Joe Rogan podcast was cited by some as her making a fool of herself while trying to answer an honestly curious question by Joe She called Tulsi Gabbard an 'Assad toady' with monstrous ideas. The funny part was them looking up the definition of toady (Joe wasn't aware of the meaning of the word), but the more damning part was Bari's defense of that characte…

The episode -- linked below -- with Tim Poole, Jack Dorsey, and Vijaya Gadde (who manages Twitter policy) was mostly just Rogan sitting back and watching Poole go back and forth with Dorsey and Gadde, mainly only stepping in to deescalate when things started getting heated or to ask a question about which he was curious. I don't recall if it was in that episode (or a previous interview just with Tim Poole) that they debated Twitter's place in electoral politics given that all candidates are conducting direct-to-voters communication via the media and whether it would run afoul of Federal Election law to ban, limit, or even censure in any way the tweets of a candidate for office. I thought that was a pretty intense debate and one that has significant importance give it's election year.

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZCBRHOg3PQ