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German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

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Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#21

Post by ojnabieoot »

dkonofalski wrote: post #3

I agree with this wholeheartedly, even as a Tesla owner. Tesla goofed from the beginning by calling tech like "Autosteer" and "Traffic Assisted Cruise Control" under the moniker "Autopilot" while shifting everything above that to "Full Self-Driving". They should have called it "CoPilot" since that infers that you're still the driver in charge of controlling the vehicle and it would have had exactly the same reception…

> Tesla goofed from the beginning by calling tech like "Autosteer" and "Traffic Assisted Cruise Control" under the moniker "Autopilot"

I am not accusing you specifically of using weak language, but let's call a spade a spade: it's not a "goof," it's a dangerous and deceptive business practice. It's one that Elon Musk is directly responsible for and directly encouraged with misleading statements where he deliberately exaggerated the capabilities of Autopilot. It's a disgrace and one of many many many reasons why Tesla needs to outright fire Musk. There are too many good people at Tesla, who don't deserve his selfish and irresponsible leadership.

To the people pointing out that airplane autopilots work similarly to Tesla Autopilot: the problem is not the foolish Tesla owners have never flows a plane before. The problem is that in the public mind, they "know" that "autopilot" means "totally autonomous" and they "know" that the computer-car-spaceship supergenius Elon Musk has been hyping his self-driving tech.

It is true that highly knowledgeable people know that Musk is an idiot conman, that "autopilot" is a very limited set of features, and so on - and that none of these things detract from the fact that Tesla makes a good car. But Tesla fans shouldn't invent ridiculous exonerations. Tesla has a responsibility for the safety of its users and they failed. Fans (along with the EU and US) need to hold the company accountable.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#22

Post by xinsight »

mrtksn wrote: post #13

This was probably the most brilliant advertising scheme of all times. Tesla is not just an electric car, it's the self driving car brand - even if it doesn't actually do that. I believe banning this kind of advertisement will only cement Tesla's image as the "Self Driving Car company" as no other company would be able to replicate it. People will continue to post memes about self driving Teslas but no one else would…

Or it backfires when people realize their newly purchased, expensive car doesn't do what they thought it could do. Tesla is not managing expectations well.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#23

Post by chrisseaton »

catalogia wrote: post #14
chrisseaton wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They should have called it "CoPilot" [rather than "AutoPilot"] Huh but a co-pilot is much more capable than an auto-pilot system. An auto-pilot mostly keeps you level, going the right speed, and pointing in the right direction, and can do some limited landing and things. That sounds to me exactly like what Tesla's system does? A co-pilot is a human who can take complete control from you for the rest of the whole fl…

The problem with this line of reasoning is that the general public has an inaccurate understanding of what airplane autopilots are capable of. The belief that modern airline pilots just push a button to turn on the plane then take a nap until the plane lands is widespread. In naming their system after a system the public has a poor understanding of, Tesla is being misleading.

However good the public think autopilots are, I'm sure they don't think they're more capable than a co-pilot!

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#24

Post by justapassenger »

itchyjunk wrote: post #7

Do regulators have an idea of what test a car needs to pass to be able to claim certain things? It there were levels of tests and passing each gave you better rating, that might give everyone an idea of there the system is. But most of the talks about this type of stuff seems to be gut feeling rating. Someone will say they think some car/software is good, other's will say it's no where close and the conversation ends…

> Do regulators have an idea of what test a car needs to pass to be able to claim certain things?

What "regulators"? There's a lot of different regulatory bodies in different countries and almost none of them has any detailed rules about self-driving-like systems.

Constant claims about "regulators" is Tesla's smoke and mirrors - it's another part of their deceiving marketing. For an outsider, just reading headlines, they make you think that tech is almost ready, "pending regulatory approval".

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#25

Post by SheinhardtWigCo »

Good. These statements are lies. The company should face punishment in the US for saying that full self-driving is blocked by “regulatory approval” when they’re still an unknown number of years away from even being able to demo something they plan to ship.

They still don’t know if full self-driving is even possible at the required level of reliability with their current hardware suite. They could well be wrong and sitting on a scandal that will eclipse Theranos.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#26

Post by chki »

bgorman wrote: post #12

I wonder how much BMW/Daimler/Volkswagen had to do with this. It is a common practice for technology companies to offer features that will only become available after a certain time period. It actually takes time and money to build these features. I'm sure the fact that BMW/Daimler/VW have completely botched their EV/Autonomous vehicle strategy and the automotive industry is Germany's cash cow has nothing at all to d…

> I'm sure the fact that BMW/Daimler/VW have completely botched their EV/Autonomous vehicle strategy and the automotive industry is Germany's cash cow has nothing at all to do with the court's decision.

What are you implying? That the German Court felt pressured by the Auto Lobby to take this decision? That the judges were biased? Bribed? Vague statements like this are very unhelpful, because you can't argue against them but they try to make a point anyway.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#27

Post by catalogia »

chrisseaton wrote: post #23
catalogia wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that the general public has an inaccurate understanding of what airplane autopilots are capable of. The belief that modern airline pilots just push a button to turn on the plane then take a nap until the plane lands is widespread. In naming their system after a system the public has a poor understanding of, Tesla is being misleading.

However good the public think autopilots are, I'm sure they don't think they're more capable than a co-pilot!

I agree that 'co-pilot' would also be a very misleading name.

I think they should avoid these sort of airplane analogies entirely and just describe features as they are. E.g. call lane assist "lane assist", call adaptive cruise control "adaptive cruise control." These are terms that reasonably convey what the systems do, without exploiting the public's general ignorance of how airplanes work.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#28

Post by stetrain »

bgorman wrote: post #12

I wonder how much BMW/Daimler/Volkswagen had to do with this. It is a common practice for technology companies to offer features that will only become available after a certain time period. It actually takes time and money to build these features. I'm sure the fact that BMW/Daimler/VW have completely botched their EV/Autonomous vehicle strategy and the automotive industry is Germany's cash cow has nothing at all to d…

Announcing features to be delivered later is common. Charging up front for those features with no delivery date is a bit less common.

In any case, should it not be made clear what the current capabilities of the car and system are as part of the advertising and purchase process?

That seems to be the issue that the court is discussing, not the premise that Tesla is pre-selling future autonomous capabilities that have not yet been delivered.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#29

Post by ojnabieoot »

mrtksn wrote: post #13

This was probably the most brilliant advertising scheme of all times. Tesla is not just an electric car, it's the self driving car brand - even if it doesn't actually do that. I believe banning this kind of advertisement will only cement Tesla's image as the "Self Driving Car company" as no other company would be able to replicate it. People will continue to post memes about self driving Teslas but no one else would…

> This was probably the most brilliant advertising scheme of all times. Tesla is not just an electric car, it's the self driving car brand - even if it doesn't actually do that.

Acting with total disregard for the safety of your users and violating laws around false advertising is not "brilliant." It wasn't "brilliant" when Bill Gates browbeat manufacturers to bundle Internet Explorer with Windows, even if he made a lot of money. It wasn't "brilliant" when Mark Zuckerberg broke the law to snoop on users phones and sell their data to advertisers, even if he used some of that money to buy a private island.

And if I distract my opponent and steal their bishop, I don't become a brilliant chess player if I win the match. Like Musk, Zuckerberg, and Gates, I would just be a massive jerk.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#30

Post by chrisseaton »

catalogia wrote: post #20
perbu wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you flown on autopilot? It maintains speed, height and direction. It doesn't land or take off. Originally it couldn't even turn.

Some can land in some conditions. However take off is still done by pilots in everything other than a few experimental aircraft.

> Some can land in some conditions.

So... a bit like a Tesla parking itself in some conditions?

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