Earlier quoted context omitted.
> China puts their own citizens in concentration camps. The usual counterpoint here is the US incarceration rate.
A prison is not a concentration camp, US has a justice system with the right to trial and appeal, and if the people in prison actually committed crimes then I'm not sure what the problem is.
Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027
121–130 of 481 posts
Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027
#122This is a good example of the kinds of tradeoffs which must be made at the highest levels of public service.
Huawei, just like any Chinese corporation operating overseas, is an attack vector for intelligence gathering. Anyone presenting a counter-argument to this is either a shill for the Chinese government, or totally uninformed.
China has a culturally distinct attitude towards intelligence and intelligence gathering to nearly every western country. The national emphasis on the collective good blurs the line between private citizens, acting in a personal or professional capacity, and the stereotypical impression of a "spy" perpetuated in the west: on the payroll, going to their cubicle at the CIA each day. China's voracious appetite for intelligence (and, particularly in recent years, industrial espionage), means that it is impossible to distinguish between the commercial interests of a Chinese company and the Chinese state furthering its apparatus.
Remember Crypto AG? The Swiss crypto company jointly-operated by the CIA and German intelligence?[1] That's newsworthy because it's unusual: western states are typically limited to publicly lobbying their corporations for backdoor access, or working around things like end-to-end encryption (e.g. I believe PRISM used a combination of vulnerabilities to exfiltrate data from Hotmail and MSN prior to encryption taking place).
In China, we must assume that the reverse is the norm: the Chinese government does not need to lobby its companies to provide it with data, or to build-in backdoors or exploits. A Chinese corporation can be compelled to turn over everything it has, silently, and to compromise users and products to benefit the Chinese government, silently.
Crucially this is not a criticism of China. China can best be understood by Westerners as a series of tradeoffs to benefit the collective good, at the expense of personal liberty and privacy. Literally the argument you might encounter would be: "If you have nothing to hide then why do you care?"
The information gathered is not always as exciting as you might imagine. It's not just deployed into military intelligence or kompromat. It might "just" be used as a means of preserving China's status quo as a leading manufacturing hub (and, therefore, China's position as a growing economic power).
So China a) has a vast appetite for intelligence of all kinds, and b) does not draw a distinction between private citizens/corporations and state actors/corporations.
To answer your question:
Huawei has been a cornerstone of the UK's telecoms infrastructure for nearly twenty years, and in order to gain its foothold committed to allowing GCHQ full access to its codebase (HCSEC)[2]. The stipulation from Britain's intelligence community was that Huawei must not be allowed to have a monopoly position, or even a significant market share beyond a certain level.
I am not familiar with the specific technical reason that Huawei at 70% vs. Huawei at 40% of the UK's telecoms infrastructure would represent a disproportionate increase in risk, but I believe it is likely to be related to resource constraints -- fuck me guys, GCHQ is having to actively monitor and review the code deployed across a double-digit % of our telecoms infrastructure from the starting position of "this is provided by a bad actor"! -- and the doomsday scenario that Huawei's position of market dominance would drive competition down, resulting in a choice to either have e.g. 7G with Huawei, or not at all (7G is a fictitious example, but you see my point).
The UK is balancing the very real ongoing nightmare of monitoring Huawei's involvement in UK telecoms with the fact that it's a cheap, high quality supplier, and the fact that our closest allies -- the United States -- have been on a warpath over Chinese intelligence gathering since long before Obama put the kibosh on China acquiring Aixtron in Germany for national security reasons. Oh, and we want to get a trade deal out of the US in the near future.
The risk:reward for Huawei is at a point where it's no longer sustainable. Phasing its removal from our infrastructure will smooth our relationship with our closest ally, reduce our reliance on a Chinese state manufacturer, and reduce the workload on our signals analysts in GCHQ.
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/feb/11/crypto-ag-ci...
[2] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027
#123The justification is that the equipment presents a national security risk. If that's true, how is it reasonable to allow this equipment to operate in the UK for 7 more years? Doesn't that mean the UK is willingly under national security risk for 7 years? Unless, of course, there was never a security risk...
This is a good example of the kinds of tradeoffs which must be made at the highest levels of public service. > Doesn't that mean the UK is willingly under national security risk for 7 years? No, and I'll come on to why in a second. Huawei, just like any Chinese corporation operating overseas, is an attack vector for intelligence gathering. Anyone presenting a counter-argument to this is either a shill for the Chinese…
Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027
#124I would encourage people to read the NCSC blog post on this as it goes into technical detail on why the decision was made. https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/blog-post/a-different-future-for-tel...
Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027
#125Earlier quoted context omitted.
China puts their own citizens in concentration camps. They're using machine learning to generate social scores. If you don't like America or the UK, you can leave. Try doing that in China. Dying in a free zone is preferable to the enslavement that the Chinese are subjected to. Freedom has a price, and it's not racist to not like these horrible cultural values or to go against them.
> China puts their own citizens in concentration camps. Is putting other countries citizens in concentration camps somehow morally superior? > They're using machine learning to generate social scores. America also has this they just call it a "credit score" or "klout". > If you don't like America or the UK, you can leave. Wow all my US expat friends who constantly complain about having to pay US taxes despite living…
Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027
#126Earlier quoted context omitted.
China puts their own citizens in concentration camps. They're using machine learning to generate social scores. If you don't like America or the UK, you can leave. Try doing that in China. Dying in a free zone is preferable to the enslavement that the Chinese are subjected to. Freedom has a price, and it's not racist to not like these horrible cultural values or to go against them.
> China puts their own citizens in concentration camps. Is putting other countries citizens in concentration camps somehow morally superior? > They're using machine learning to generate social scores. America also has this they just call it a "credit score" or "klout". > If you don't like America or the UK, you can leave. Wow all my US expat friends who constantly complain about having to pay US taxes despite living…
If you are a US citizen, you are expected to pay a certain amount of US taxes even while living abroad. Presumably, this is because you still benefit from bring US citizen while living abroad.
> No it's racist to ignore the injustices we commit in the west while condemning Asian countries for doing the same thing with different branding.
No, that's hypocrisy, which is a totally different thing from racism.
Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027
#127Total crap;either it is a security risk and it has to be removed yesterday or it is not. 2027 is meaningless.
Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
China puts their own citizens in concentration camps. They're using machine learning to generate social scores. If you don't like America or the UK, you can leave. Try doing that in China. Dying in a free zone is preferable to the enslavement that the Chinese are subjected to. Freedom has a price, and it's not racist to not like these horrible cultural values or to go against them.
> China puts their own citizens in concentration camps. Is putting other countries citizens in concentration camps somehow morally superior? > They're using machine learning to generate social scores. America also has this they just call it a "credit score" or "klout". > If you don't like America or the UK, you can leave. Wow all my US expat friends who constantly complain about having to pay US taxes despite living…
This is not the same as being physically restrained from leaving, and they would find these stop if they renounce US citizenship.
> The argument isn't "China is good actually." It's "We do most of the same stuff you are accusing them of."
But we don't, neither to the same scale nor intensity.
It's not racist to criticise the actions of another country, even if your own isn't perfect. You can criticise both, and you can call out which is worse.
In this case it is the undemocratic nation suppressing speech and political expression, while commiting racist, demographic genocide within its own borders.
Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027
#129Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is definitely good coming out of it for the EU. Europe does not have to align with either side. It is a superpower in its own right if it gets its shit together (one can dream).
This is not some neutral decision, but a move forced by the fallout of US sanctions, that the UK can’t do anything about. They’re giving up a partnership they entered after independently reviewing the equipment, I can’t see how it is a good outcome for them.
This is not the same situation for the EU.
Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your point is? Every nation does this with their indigenous population. Yet you don't seem to be outraged at the fact native americans are raped and murdered almost everyday in america.
> Every nation does this with their indigenous population. And it is always wrong. > Yet you don't seem to be outraged at the fact native americans are raped and murdered almost everyday in america. Not under sanction of the state, and Non native americans are also raped and murdered almost every day in america. These things are crimes in USA regardless of the victim, where in China the state is sanctioning it and do…