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Deschooling Society (1970)

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Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#21

Post by tharne »

guidoism wrote: post #17
tmaly wrote: post #7

"Classroom attendance removes children from the everyday world of Western culture and plunges them into an environment far more primitive, magical, and deadly serious." I know it was written in 1970, but back then a family could still have one person working a good job on just a high school diploma. Today, grade school serves the primary purpose as a daycare for the kids so both parents can work.

Families these days can still do it but they don’t because they are led to believe in paying for convenience and get into a cycle that turns everything in their life into something the market provides. The insidious thing is that once you get into debt it is very difficult to break this cycle.

This is very true. I know families where one parent stays home and others where both parents work. What surprised me is that there is no correlation between household income and whether or not one parent stays home (at least not in my admittedly small sample).

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#22

Post by jtbayly »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #10
minerjoe wrote: post #2

"Many students, especially those who are poor, intuitively know what the schools do for them. They school them to confuse process and substance. Once these become blurred, a new logic is assumed: the more treatment there is, the better are the results; or, escalation leads to success. The pupil is thereby "schooled" to confuse teaching with learning, grade advancement with education, a diploma with competence, and fl…

Many students, especially those who are poor, intuitively know what the schools do for them You wish they knew but they don't. The kids, especially the poor ones, want worksheets, not problems. They want to pass but not learn. They want a degree without the competence. They want a job without possibility of advancement and if you don't provide that they resent you because you are in the way.

You aren't disagreeing with it, so far as I can tell.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#23

Post by [deleted] »

watwut wrote: post #20
tharne wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Today, grade school serves the primary purpose as a daycare for the kids so both parents can work. The current pandemic has exposed this fact undeniably and you can see a lot of educators are unhappy about that. A number of friends in the legal profession have told me that's why private elementary schools have been much quicker to reduce or refund tuition. Colleges can make the argument they're providing "education…

Online education does much less for small children then for adults. The difference between in person and online for small kids is massive. And in online version, parent does a lot of the education part. The elementary school kid can care about itself, even happily if allowed tablet. But won't learn even with zoom without parent.

[deleted]

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#24

Post by danans »

minerjoe wrote: post #2

"Many students, especially those who are poor, intuitively know what the schools do for them. They school them to confuse process and substance. Once these become blurred, a new logic is assumed: the more treatment there is, the better are the results; or, escalation leads to success. The pupil is thereby "schooled" to confuse teaching with learning, grade advancement with education, a diploma with competence, and fl…

That whole argument is a massive straw-man in service of a libertarian attack on the funding of social institutions like hospitals and schools.

I would hope that for consistency, Illich on principle refused to take treatment from Germany's health care system, populated by medical professionals who are the product of the education system he so detested.

There is a lot to be critiqued with the way that medicine and education are practiced and paid for, but to enjoy the benefits of both, while laying fault at the feet of institutionalized medicine and education while ignoring the context both operate borders on hypocrisy.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#26

Post by guidoism »

watwut wrote: post #9
tmaly wrote: post #7

"Classroom attendance removes children from the everyday world of Western culture and plunges them into an environment far more primitive, magical, and deadly serious." I know it was written in 1970, but back then a family could still have one person working a good job on just a high school diploma. Today, grade school serves the primary purpose as a daycare for the kids so both parents can work.

As someone who absolutely want work and thus needs the kids somewhere during the day, the whole "school is just daycare" is crap. My kids were at home and I worked during covid and the hell they learn more now that they are back in school. And while I still am working from home and they were actually quite cool during day, the learning effects of school are massive and massively appreciated - by both kids and me. It…

It’s true only because you and your kids weren’t prepared and didn’t have time to think through the situation. Trying to replicate school at home is a recipe for disaster. Instead, think about what an education means to you and what you want your kids to be when they are 18 or so. Then design your years and days around that. Nobody can fault you for the result of the pandemic homeschooling experiment. Nobody was prepared. And you were trying to work from home at the same time. This last semester has pretty much just been a pause for most people.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#27

Post by pantaloony »

guidoism wrote: post #17
tmaly wrote: post #7

"Classroom attendance removes children from the everyday world of Western culture and plunges them into an environment far more primitive, magical, and deadly serious." I know it was written in 1970, but back then a family could still have one person working a good job on just a high school diploma. Today, grade school serves the primary purpose as a daycare for the kids so both parents can work.

Families these days can still do it but they don’t because they are led to believe in paying for convenience and get into a cycle that turns everything in their life into something the market provides. The insidious thing is that once you get into debt it is very difficult to break this cycle.

It’s hard to do unless one parent is comfortable with, capable of, and willing to spend years facilitating homeschooling (property near good schools is expensive). Then it’s still incredibly expensive in lost wages (and greater income insecurity/risk, which is even worse in the US due to how healthcare and retirement works, plus it probably ties the other partner to secure corporate jobs for healthcare if nothing else, and so limits upside available from riskier moves) compared with other options, unless you have several kids and the stay-at-home parent had fairly low earning potential.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#28

Post by jonjacky »

Steven Kell has noted the relevance of Illich's ideas to computing and software:

https://www.cs.kent.ac.uk/people/staff/srk21/research/talks/...

"Ivan Illich was a 20th-century philosopher whose work recurringly examines the counterproductivity of modern social institutions. ... I encountered Illich's writing entirely by chance, but was immediately struck by how directly his words transferred to described what I saw as the plight of software."

https://www.cs.kent.ac.uk/people/staff/srk21/research/talks/...

"Software Against Humanity? An Illichian perspective on the industrial era of software

... (Ivan Illich) observed that (institutions he criticised were) poor at (their) stated ends... the means and ends had become confused! (those institutions) can still be self-sustaining, can still claim advances by (their) own criteria ..."

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#29

Post by guidoism »

watwut wrote: post #20
tharne wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Today, grade school serves the primary purpose as a daycare for the kids so both parents can work. The current pandemic has exposed this fact undeniably and you can see a lot of educators are unhappy about that. A number of friends in the legal profession have told me that's why private elementary schools have been much quicker to reduce or refund tuition. Colleges can make the argument they're providing "education…

Online education does much less for small children then for adults. The difference between in person and online for small kids is massive. And in online version, parent does a lot of the education part. The elementary school kid can care about itself, even happily if allowed tablet. But won't learn even with zoom without parent.

I don’t think that anyone will be able to learn on Zoom. It sounds horrible.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#30

Post by TYPE_FASTER »

tmaly wrote: post #7

"Classroom attendance removes children from the everyday world of Western culture and plunges them into an environment far more primitive, magical, and deadly serious." I know it was written in 1970, but back then a family could still have one person working a good job on just a high school diploma. Today, grade school serves the primary purpose as a daycare for the kids so both parents can work.

> Today, grade school serves the primary purpose as a daycare for the kids so both parents can work.

I have not found this to be the case. I'm not a professional educator. I'm not going to do as good a job at educating my kids as an experienced teacher. Looking at what our kids are learning, I'm impressed by the curriculum, which at least in our district has kept up with changes in day to day life and professional expectations.

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