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Deschooling Society (1970)

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Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#11

Post by dbspin »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #10
minerjoe wrote: post #2

"Many students, especially those who are poor, intuitively know what the schools do for them. They school them to confuse process and substance. Once these become blurred, a new logic is assumed: the more treatment there is, the better are the results; or, escalation leads to success. The pupil is thereby "schooled" to confuse teaching with learning, grade advancement with education, a diploma with competence, and fl…

Many students, especially those who are poor, intuitively know what the schools do for them You wish they knew but they don't. The kids, especially the poor ones, want worksheets, not problems. They want to pass but not learn. They want a degree without the competence. They want a job without possibility of advancement and if you don't provide that they resent you because you are in the way.

You're describing the Nth generation in a hopeless environment, not children in general. This is an encultured attitude, not an innate one. Illich's point, and one born out by learning research is that the desire to learn, to gain knowledge and mastery for its own sake - is innate to such an extent that it can actually be diminished by extrinsic rewards. All children share this.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#12

Post by snikeris »

> In these essays, I will show that the institutionalization of values leads inevitably to physical pollution, social polarization, and psychological impotence: three dimensions in a process of global degradation and modernized misery.

> Ivan Dominic Illich (/ɪˈvɑːn ˈɪlɪtʃ/; 4 September 1926 – 2 December 2002) was a Roman Catholic priest, theologian, philosopher, and social critic.

I wonder if his experience as a priest informed his commentary here.

Religions start from exceptional individuals who divine spiritual truth. They develop followers who recognize said truth. Over time, followers ossify into a church, which can be thought of as an institutionalization of spiritual values.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#13

Post by pantaloony »

motohagiography wrote: post #4

Illich's concept of a "Radical Monopoly," is also immensely relevant to internet platforms. Radical monopoly is a concept defined by philosopher and author Ivan Illich in his 1973 book, "Tools for Conviviality," and revisited in his later work, which describes how a technology or service becomes so exceptionally dominant that even with multiple providers, its users are excluded from society without access to the prod…

His essay on (in part) cars drove (haha) me to run the numbers and despite being fairly conservative with how much closer-together my city would be without car infrastructure (esp. parking lots and massive, useless “green space” setbacks and margins to keep roads at a tolerable distance from people) and despite my being somewhat thrifty on car spending and having a relatively short commute—sure enough, I was right around break-even for time savings vs. a bike in a hypothetical very-few-cars version of my city.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#14

Post by tharne »

tmaly wrote: post #7

"Classroom attendance removes children from the everyday world of Western culture and plunges them into an environment far more primitive, magical, and deadly serious." I know it was written in 1970, but back then a family could still have one person working a good job on just a high school diploma. Today, grade school serves the primary purpose as a daycare for the kids so both parents can work.

> Today, grade school serves the primary purpose as a daycare for the kids so both parents can work.

The current pandemic has exposed this fact undeniably and you can see a lot of educators are unhappy about that.

A number of friends in the legal profession have told me that's why private elementary schools have been much quicker to reduce or refund tuition. Colleges can make the argument they're providing "education" regardless of physical location, while most legal experts will argue that a private elementary school cannot continue to demand full tuition when a significant portion of their value proposition is childcare.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#16

Post by Ericson2314 »

motohagiography wrote: post #4

Illich's concept of a "Radical Monopoly," is also immensely relevant to internet platforms. Radical monopoly is a concept defined by philosopher and author Ivan Illich in his 1973 book, "Tools for Conviviality," and revisited in his later work, which describes how a technology or service becomes so exceptionally dominant that even with multiple providers, its users are excluded from society without access to the prod…

> I think Illich's criticisms of car culture pushed him outside the Overton window of policy making.

Then or now? Cars being terrible and destroying society is not a fringe view in many places.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#17

Post by guidoism »

tmaly wrote: post #7

"Classroom attendance removes children from the everyday world of Western culture and plunges them into an environment far more primitive, magical, and deadly serious." I know it was written in 1970, but back then a family could still have one person working a good job on just a high school diploma. Today, grade school serves the primary purpose as a daycare for the kids so both parents can work.

Families these days can still do it but they don’t because they are led to believe in paying for convenience and get into a cycle that turns everything in their life into something the market provides. The insidious thing is that once you get into debt it is very difficult to break this cycle.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#18

Post by tharne »

watwut wrote: post #9
tmaly wrote: post #7

"Classroom attendance removes children from the everyday world of Western culture and plunges them into an environment far more primitive, magical, and deadly serious." I know it was written in 1970, but back then a family could still have one person working a good job on just a high school diploma. Today, grade school serves the primary purpose as a daycare for the kids so both parents can work.

As someone who absolutely want work and thus needs the kids somewhere during the day, the whole "school is just daycare" is crap. My kids were at home and I worked during covid and the hell they learn more now that they are back in school. And while I still am working from home and they were actually quite cool during day, the learning effects of school are massive and massively appreciated - by both kids and me. It…

You must have much better schools where you live compared to me.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#19

Post by HarryHirsch »

dbspin wrote: post #11
HarryHirsch wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many students, especially those who are poor, intuitively know what the schools do for them You wish they knew but they don't. The kids, especially the poor ones, want worksheets, not problems. They want to pass but not learn. They want a degree without the competence. They want a job without possibility of advancement and if you don't provide that they resent you because you are in the way.

You're describing the Nth generation in a hopeless environment, not children in general. This is an encultured attitude, not an innate one. Illich's point, and one born out by learning research is that the desire to learn, to gain knowledge and mastery for its own sake - is innate to such an extent that it can actually be diminished by extrinsic rewards. All children share this.

Complete agreement about the hopeless environment. My point was that the enculturation works extremely reliably. I have not met a single student who questioned or rejected the culture. It is dejecting, and you despise the kids for that.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#20

Post by watwut »

tharne wrote: post #14
tmaly wrote: post #7

"Classroom attendance removes children from the everyday world of Western culture and plunges them into an environment far more primitive, magical, and deadly serious." I know it was written in 1970, but back then a family could still have one person working a good job on just a high school diploma. Today, grade school serves the primary purpose as a daycare for the kids so both parents can work.

> Today, grade school serves the primary purpose as a daycare for the kids so both parents can work. The current pandemic has exposed this fact undeniably and you can see a lot of educators are unhappy about that. A number of friends in the legal profession have told me that's why private elementary schools have been much quicker to reduce or refund tuition. Colleges can make the argument they're providing "education…

Online education does much less for small children then for adults. The difference between in person and online for small kids is massive.

And in online version, parent does a lot of the education part. The elementary school kid can care about itself, even happily if allowed tablet.

But won't learn even with zoom without parent.

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