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US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

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Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#261

Post by ciguy »

ketzu wrote: post #97
ciguy wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just ignored the armored vehicles and police station permanently setup at one end of the square? The facial recognition when you go through the scanners? The guards posted at vantage points with rifles? You were either paying no attention at all, or you are intentionally misrepresenting the situation.

> You just ignored the armored vehicles and police station permanently setup at one end of the square? Apparently yes, at least I can't find them on my pictures and don't remember them (but that doesn't mean they weren't there, human memories are notoriously unreliable). But I didn't took that many pictures either way, because it was slightly raining and not that interesting, I accidentally went when the forbidden ci…

Appreciate your reasonable responses. It's of course possible that they change the security level at times especially if the Forbidden City was closed as you say. It likely also changes around the anniversary of the Tiananmen Square Massacre.

Examining my own feelings on this matter further, I think I had a sense that the security at the Eiffel was very focused on keeping weapons and bombs out, while the focus at Tiananmen was more on controlling the crowd and tracking who was there. For example the police station and armored vehicles were inside the square. At the Eiffel the security was outside only.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#263

Post by cvlasdkv »

room271 wrote: post #232
IllogicalLogic wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Assange leaked Chinese intelligence secrets, would he be free right now? I expect so. I'm not sure the whole "China is uniquely evil" idea that is expressed in these comments stands up to even the smallest scrutiny.

There is a difference between China is 'uniquely evil' and 'China has an especially bad record on human rights and fair enforcement of the law.' Remember, in China there is pretty much no freedom of thought, including religion. And they are oppressing 3 large groups of people - Tibet, Xinjiang, and now Hong Kong. Of course it is not a binary good/bad thing, but some kind of false moral equivalence between China and W…

The West has 100% done more "evil" if we're going by "oppression olympics". One can simply look at the violence exported by the respective groups. Also keep in mind how often America lies and sends agents to destabilize China (I'm sure vice-versa is also true yet Americans choose to blame Russians instead? Not sure why.). Now, I do not believe that is a fruitful or meaningful argument to have but your argument seems to come from a place of American exceptionalism over weighing both sides.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#264

Post by jszymborski »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #227
jszymborski wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"just" retaliation... this makes their detention arbitrary. After Meng Wanzhou was arrested (and placed under house arrest in her multi-million dollar Vancouver mansion), the Chinese government arbitrarily picked two high-value Canadians (an entrepeneur and a Candian diplomat) and threw them into solitary confinement, interrogating them 24/7 in shifts, and giving ostensibly no access to lawyers/representation. Oh, an…

It's difficult to determine whether it is arbitrary (in the legal sense) because the Chinese government does not communicate on these issues and the Canadian government will obviously not want to spill any beans. What is plain to me is that a Canadian guy who can live in China at the border with North Korea, can run a business there, and personally knows Kim Jung Un is not just any "entrepreneur"... Likewise we canno…

> I'm not defending the Chinese government

Strange, because this comment, as well as the vast majority of your comment history, expressly come to the defence of the CCP.

Being an entrepreneur nor a diplomat is not probable cause for an arrest, and the opaqueness of the CCP on all their criminal cases is by design for this very reason; it's a smoking gun, not a smoke screen.

You're right that these two weren't entirely arbitrarily picked, they chose two people high-profile targets as you normally would in a hostage situation.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#265

Post by mthoms »

dirtyid wrote: post #260
mthoms wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the most part I was unable to decipher your comment. At least insofar as to how it provides any evidence whatsoever that either of the men are spies. All you seem to have said is that one of men is involved with North Korea (a close China ally, so I'm not sure how that supports your argument) and that "NGO is typical spy cover in China". Hardly compelling.

1. The Michael's fit the profile for spies that operate in China to a T. One Michael is ex-diplomat working at NGO, another works in NGO affiliated with NK and a source of NK information. Hint: Chinese officials with access to NK aren't the ones soliciting him for insights. 2. China has proven record to exposing spies domestically, seen in 2010 CIA debacle where every CIA asset in the country was compromised. 3. Chin…

Edit: You know what, after looking at your post history, I'm not interested in a response. Nor will I respond. That's because your entire post history (as far back as I went) consists exclusively of vehemently defending China on a wide array of topics. That's a bit of a red flag (pun intended).

Original post:

1. Sorry but "fitting the profile" is not compelling evidence. Of course they will pick people who "fit the profile". It's incredibly naive of you to think otherwise.

2. Since we don't know what percentage of spies they've caught I don't know how you can say they have a "proven track record" and therefore they are likely spies. What is their "proven" success rate exactly? What percentage? Can you provide citations?

I'm only vaguely familiar with the CIA incident you describe but - doesn't it follow simple logic that the CIA would support and encourage the narrative that all their spies were caught? Come on. Use your head.

3. It wasn't arbitrary. That's been established. As you said they "fit the profile" and served a political purpose.

4. Ergo nothing. The only "evidence" you've offered is that they "fit the profile". Laughable.

>One would need compelling evidence to demonstrate why they aren't spies

Wait what? Really? Is that how your version of justice works? The CCP has a proven history of lies and manipulation probably unparalleled in the world. I'm flabbergasted that you'd give them the benefit of the doubt without any evidence.

>But many people can't seem to accept China is a rational geopolitical actor who retaliated intelligently instead of randomly kidnap expats for shits and giggles.

You're intentionally conflating rationality with justifiability. They acted in their own self interest, which (by definition) is indeed "rational". Nobody disagrees that they made a smart (and wholly expected) chess move. The question is whether the move was justified.

None of the amateur armchair spymaster opinions you've offered come close to proving the move was justified. You've offered no compelling evidence other than "China wouldn't do that!" and "they fit the profile". Please.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#266

Post by dang »

dicomdan wrote: post #21
rorykoehler wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Posted 10 mins ago and already downvoted. Do HN not have algos to stop this astroturfing behaviour? It’s becoming very prevalent for anything that criticises the CCP.

This is by design, there's a lot of money in Chinese startups so it makes sense for YC to try and appease the regime. There are a couple superusers who will send this post to 3rd page in an hour or less. And everyone who speaks out gets a ban or warning from dang because of "rule violation". At the same time if you post anything, no matter how unsubstantiated, that criticizes US or liberal democracies or their tech c…

This is inaccurate in every respect, including the bit about YC.

Your comment breaks the site guidelines. Please read and follow them when posting here - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

Perceptions about these things a massively distorted by cognitive bias, and I think that's what's happening here. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#267

Post by Nginx487 »

Aperocky wrote: post #85
adventured wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For Australia as well. They recently gave an Australian citizen a death penalty sentence in retaliation for the ongoing conflict between Australia and China. At the rate things are going, in another five years nobody from a liberal nation will be able to safely visit Xi's new hermit kingdom. It's a shame. I always thought it would be nice to visit Hong Kong.

> Karm Gilespie, had been sentenced to death for attempting to smuggle 7.5kg of methamphetamine through a Chinese airport in December 2013. The death penalty threshold is 50 gram for methamphetamine in China, in absence of other 'good behavior' such as collaboration, etc. If any Chinese citizen attempted to smuggle this much drugs into China, it's going to be the same fate, except maybe faster. Drug dealers in China…

Did anyone think what was the reason to smuggle drugs into China, while it is notorious for outgoing drug trafficking? I bet they detain a random man and accused of a crime he did not commit. Why? Because they can.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#269

Post by Nginx487 »

unishark wrote: post #121
jorblumesea wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe not with US territory directly but China has been extremely aggressive in the South China Sea. Despite this being international waters, Western aligned nations and US ships have been directly harassed and threatened. The Chinese island military bases are a direct move to allow area denial. They [the CCP] also export Chinese-style internet controls and ideological ideas around censorship and the acceptability of…

Are you calling Vietnam a western-aligned nation? I'd say it just looks like China versus whoever stands in their way as they invent new claims to resources in the region.

Vietnam at this time clearly an ally of the US and other Western countries, against China of course. There was a plan to create a naval base in Cam Rahn, but new US administration cancelled this.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#270

Post by Nginx487 »

jorblumesea wrote: post #168
unishark wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you calling Vietnam a western-aligned nation? I'd say it just looks like China versus whoever stands in their way as they invent new claims to resources in the region.

I was thinking more of the Philippines / Taiwan / Indonesia, but fair point. Vietnam has also received a fair amount of Chinese aggression despite being "socialist brothers".

Vietnam and China have never been "socialist brothers", and even just brothers. They are adversaries on the civilizational level, 17 big wars during the last 20 centuries, half of them for Vietnamese independence. The last armed conflict happened in 1989, when China occupied disputed islands in the South-China sea. Vietnam would side to anyone against China (source: I live here)
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