US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China • Hacker News Board

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#151

Post by Nginx487 » Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 5:31 PM UTC

outlace wrote: post #93

I've visited China nearly every year for the past 6 years and never had any sort of issues. I thought all the security personnel I encountered at the airport, immigration, subway stations etc in China were very professional and respectful. In contrast to one of the last times I was returning from China to the U.S. and witnessed a highly unprofessional U.S. CBP officer who was yelling and berating incoming internation…

Of course, if it did not happen to you, it may never happen to anyone else, like to these Canadian citizens who have been here taken hostages, or Australian citizen sentenced to death.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#152

Post by giobox » Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 5:32 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #127

JohnTHaller wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chinese authorities have the broad ability to prohibit travelers from leaving China (also known as ‘exit bans’); exit bans have been imposed to compel U.S. citizens to resolve business disputes, force settlement of court orders, or facilitate government investigations. Individuals not involved in legal proceedings or suspected of wrongdoing have also be subjected to lengthy exit bans in order to compel their family…

I mean, is it really such a rare thing to do? I know that in Poland if you have any outstanding and overdue unpaid fines/alimonies/traffic tickets, you will be prevented from boarding a flight out of the country at any airport until those obligations are paid.

Detention for _civil_ offences or business disputes? Yes, that does not happen in most Western countries.

We aren’t talking just about criminal or major offences here.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#153

Post by ideals » Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 5:32 PM UTC

jlokier wrote: post #123

mytailorisrich wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leaving the discussion on right or wrong aside, the 2 Canadians were not targeted at random and were clearly on a Chinese government list of foreigners with close links to foreign governments' agencies that the Chinese let operate "at their pleasure". A bit like when e.g. Russia arrests and expels/imprisons Western spies the US/UK immediately know which Russians on their soil to target in the same way in a tit-for-ta…

There's a big difference between: - Expelling people back to their home country where they are still free as a form of diplomacy versus - Imprisoning, torturing and passing the death sentence as a form of diplomcy.

Imprisoning, torturing and passing the death sentence as a form of diplomcy.

Which brings up a good point, why is Guantanamo Bay still a thing. Why are those people still denied their rights.

Gitmo has gotten really bad now with Covid

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#154

Post by computerphage » Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 5:32 PM UTC

hartator wrote: post #146

magicsmoke wrote: post #115

Use this to negotiate hazard pay with your company when traveling to China. There's money to be made by leveraging the difference between perceived and actual risk.

> There's money to be made by leveraging the difference between perceived and actual risk. You think the risk is not that big?

How big is "not that big"? What do you think it is?

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#155

Post by mlthoughts2018 » Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

sterlind wrote: post #129

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstand > “ but in order to control those better educated people, they will need ever better control mechanisms.” This is like a building whose own load directly undermines its own stability, or a roller coaster whose own construction dynamics tears itself apart little by little with each run. Trying to institute mass social control while changing a population to be highly educated knowledge workers…

You can be highly educated at engineering and still know nothing about politics or philosophy. I think the best thing they can do is induce political apathy. Discourage people from trying to get into even the Party apparatus, except as functionaries doing repetitive, menial jobs, and then keep people prosperous so they don't question. I've certainly known a lot of engineers - Western engineers, even - who didn't care…

I don’t agree. To become highly educated in really any type of knowledge work, it requires a type of intellectual curiosity and openness to the scientific method applied to all possible policy decision making that is incompatible with the generalization you claim, at a fundamental level.

The drives simply can’t coexist in the same mind at the scale of a society. The drive of scientific inquiry required to be literate in almost all knowledge work is an incompatible internal drive against mindless acceptance of authoritarian policy.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#156

Post by jorblumesea » Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #127

JohnTHaller wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chinese authorities have the broad ability to prohibit travelers from leaving China (also known as ‘exit bans’); exit bans have been imposed to compel U.S. citizens to resolve business disputes, force settlement of court orders, or facilitate government investigations. Individuals not involved in legal proceedings or suspected of wrongdoing have also be subjected to lengthy exit bans in order to compel their family…

I mean, is it really such a rare thing to do? I know that in Poland if you have any outstanding and overdue unpaid fines/alimonies/traffic tickets, you will be prevented from boarding a flight out of the country at any airport until those obligations are paid.

Those examples are of civil infractions, which are not criminal offenses. So yeah, that would be weird. Maybe if you injured someone in a car accident or stole money.

But it gets even worse. Imagine if you went to Poland, got into an argument with the manager of a factory there, and had your exist visa revoked. Imagine if someone from a state service showed up and told you, off the record, that you needed to hash things out to leave the country.

Isn't that pretty crazy? I think so.

The exist visa ban is a broad sweeping power than can be used by the state for almost any purpose.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#157

Post by fermienrico » Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

Deleting this comment - I will email dang.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#158

Post by makomk » Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 5:35 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #11

gentleman11 wrote: post #3

This is bad for Canadians recently, with many arrests and accusations of spying, all because of political retaliation over that rich lady

For Australia as well. They recently gave an Australian citizen a death penalty sentence in retaliation for the ongoing conflict between Australia and China. At the rate things are going, in another five years nobody from a liberal nation will be able to safely visit Xi's new hermit kingdom. It's a shame. I always thought it would be nice to visit Hong Kong.

Yeah, the Australian government gave its own citizens a very similar warning about travelling to China a few days ago: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-07/dfat-changes-travel-a...

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#159

Post by JohnTHaller » Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #127

JohnTHaller wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chinese authorities have the broad ability to prohibit travelers from leaving China (also known as ‘exit bans’); exit bans have been imposed to compel U.S. citizens to resolve business disputes, force settlement of court orders, or facilitate government investigations. Individuals not involved in legal proceedings or suspected of wrongdoing have also be subjected to lengthy exit bans in order to compel their family…

I mean, is it really such a rare thing to do? I know that in Poland if you have any outstanding and overdue unpaid fines/alimonies/traffic tickets, you will be prevented from boarding a flight out of the country at any airport until those obligations are paid.

Did you miss the part about holding innocent family members?

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#160

Post by jlokier » Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #136

jlokier wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a big difference between: - Expelling people back to their home country where they are still free as a form of diplomacy versus - Imprisoning, torturing and passing the death sentence as a form of diplomcy.

That's besides the point. The point is that this is tit-for-tat retaliation that targets specific people whom we don't know the whole story about (You can try to set up a business at the border with North Korea and to get to know Kim Jung Un like one of the Canadians arrested... I doubt you'll get far). This does not tell you anything about life in China as a Canadian. Edit in response to jlokier below: I think every…

The point is that the retaliation is life-destroying levels of severe, and "making waves" is extremely vague. Something nobody knows if they themselves are thought to be doing.

I visited china about 10 years ago, on a working trip. Nothing to do with government, just a very mundane bit of electronics we were collaborating on. While there I asked what I thought were innocent questions about ordinary life and politics, and it became clear that people there did not feel safe answering some of those questions.

To this day I don't know if that counts as "making waves".

These days, I would not feel safe returning to China for work. I recently turned down an excellent job opportunity that would require very occasional trips to China, because it seems just that bit too much of a risk at the moment.