US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China • Hacker News Board

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#131

Post by petre » Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 5:23 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #104

wendyshu wrote: post #8

Not just arrested but tortured, as we've seen with the two Canadian Michaels and the British Simon Cheng. Edit: British-employed not actually British

Leaving the discussion on right or wrong aside, the 2 Canadians were not targeted at random and were clearly on a Chinese government list of foreigners with close links to foreign governments' agencies that the Chinese let operate "at their pleasure". A bit like when e.g. Russia arrests and expels/imprisons Western spies the US/UK immediately know which Russians on their soil to target in the same way in a tit-for-ta…

At least Russia, the US and the EU expel each others' spies as opposed to imprisionment and torture. Tourture is even illegal and punished bt law in the EU, which adhers to the human rights charter.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#132

Post by genoapol » Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 5:24 PM UTC

0x8BADF00D wrote: post #95

alex_anglin wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the point of arbitrary arrest that the crime is figured out afterwards, if at all?

Sort of. In many Asian countries, the rule of law is very weak or nonexistent. This means you will eventually come into contact with the police - usually for the purpose of extorting a bribe from you.

Don't bring drugs into Asia and expect to have a good time. This is one area that being ignorant of history can get one executed.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#133

Post by ausjke » Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 5:24 PM UTC

genoapol wrote: post #122

JohnTHaller wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chinese authorities have the broad ability to prohibit travelers from leaving China (also known as ‘exit bans’); exit bans have been imposed to compel U.S. citizens to resolve business disputes, force settlement of court orders, or facilitate government investigations. Individuals not involved in legal proceedings or suspected of wrongdoing have also be subjected to lengthy exit bans in order to compel their family…

Sounds like what the US & Canada did to Meng Wanzhou.

At least Meng can hire lawyers etc. In China, there is no real law when it comes to anything political or economical, which are always mixed.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#134

Post by magicsmoke » Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 5:25 PM UTC

indymike wrote: post #87

eplanit wrote: post #6

I get the impression that we're now in an undeclared Cold War with China.

This is certainly not a cold war - it's a trade war, it's competition, it's different cultures... but it is not war frozen in place by the threat of annihilation.

One-sided cold war perhaps. China has no interest in turning the US communist. Because of Chinese exceptionalism, it doesn't think that's desirable or even possible. Can the US picture a future where it coexists with a communist China though? Based on comments from most Anglophone commentators, that doesn't seem to be the case. Their only two end goals for China is eventual democracy or eventual collapse.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#135

Post by monksy » Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 5:25 PM UTC

rorykoehler wrote: post #7

ciguy wrote: post #2

I've been to China a few times, most recently in late 2018. I traveled overland by train from Beijing to Xian and then to Shanghai. Everything as a non-chinese citizen was just harder than it was when I visited in 2014. Buying train tickets was a massive hassle without a Chinese ID. Paying for anything was difficult because many places no longer take cash and you can't really get a proper WeChat account as a foreigne…

Posted 10 mins ago and already downvoted. Do HN not have algos to stop this astroturfing behaviour? It’s becoming very prevalent for anything that criticises the CCP.

This happens in real life as well. There are propaganda efforts in foreign countries: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tsXtk7psUc

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#136

Post by mytailorisrich » Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 5:25 PM UTC

jlokier wrote: post #123

mytailorisrich wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leaving the discussion on right or wrong aside, the 2 Canadians were not targeted at random and were clearly on a Chinese government list of foreigners with close links to foreign governments' agencies that the Chinese let operate "at their pleasure". A bit like when e.g. Russia arrests and expels/imprisons Western spies the US/UK immediately know which Russians on their soil to target in the same way in a tit-for-ta…

There's a big difference between: - Expelling people back to their home country where they are still free as a form of diplomacy versus - Imprisoning, torturing and passing the death sentence as a form of diplomcy.

That's besides the point. The point is that this is tit-for-tat retaliation that targets specific people whom we don't know the whole story about (You can try to set up a business at the border with North Korea and to get to know Kim Jung Un like one of the Canadians arrested... I doubt you'll get far). This does not tell you anything about life in China as a Canadian.

Edit in response to jlokier below: I think everyone with a bit of common sense understands what "making waves" means when travelling abroad, and especially when travelling to China (or any country with an authoritarian regime). Be respectful, don't challenge officials, don't get involved in politics, don't make strong political statements on sensitive topics. When you're a guest somewhere, behave like one.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#137

Post by amanaplanacanal » Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 5:25 PM UTC

0x8BADF00D wrote: post #101

If you look at the history, China did much better under colonialism. Compare how much nicer Hong Kong looks to the average Chinese city, with waste and trash everywhere and heavy pollution being spewed in the air. It’s time we had an honest conversation about the benefits of colonialism, not just discussing the negative aspects of it.

Dunno. Colonialism led directly to the results you see today.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#138

Post by EForEndeavour » Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 5:25 PM UTC

outlace wrote: post #93

I've visited China nearly every year for the past 6 years and never had any sort of issues. I thought all the security personnel I encountered at the airport, immigration, subway stations etc in China were very professional and respectful. In contrast to one of the last times I was returning from China to the U.S. and witnessed a highly unprofessional U.S. CBP officer who was yelling and berating incoming internation…

I don't mean to be snarky, but is it possible that your personal experience in the past cannot perfectly predict the experiences of other people in the future, who may well visit different parts of the country, encounter different personnel, and will say and write different things?

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#139

Post by sterlind » Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 5:26 PM UTC

Johnjonjoan wrote: post #113

wendyshu wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China's state-sponsored IP theft has been called the largest transfer of wealth in history. I'm honestly curious what the best diplomatic strategy is to combat it, other than declaring war.

There's no good way of combating it that doesn't end in war. Sanctions will lead to more Chinese public support for that war. Perhaps this leads the CCP to become complacent and fight us before they can win. That's probably the best conventional scenario (for the West) Unconventional scenario: We steal traditional Chinese medicine and deny we took it. It achieves pretty much nothing but hopefully some Chinese people…

We can just start stealing back Chinese IP. They're inventing and designing a lot of their own stuff now -- fabs, for example. Let's just do industrial espionage and use it to build up domestic production!

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#140

Post by genoapol » Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 5:26 PM UTC

kolanos wrote: post #79

poiuytrewqa wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, as European I think China and US are pretty similar in many ways (propaganda, law enforcement etc). So said each country has their own problem but if anybody focus more on resolving their internal problem before teaching everybody how to live would be better. In this forum is very hard to discuss anything serious that doesn't follow the prevalent opinion that you get down votes without reason.

> To be honest, as European I think China and US are pretty similar in many ways (propaganda, law enforcement etc). As a non-European, non-American and non-Chinese I find this utterly confused line of thinking depressing. It is clear Europeans are subject to their own propaganda in this regard.

Except the Chinese haven't acted like global parasites for the past few centuries like Europe and America.