Live data from Hacker News

The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

gsb.stanford.edu

141–150 of 160 posts

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#141
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way we can have anything resembling a free market for labour is if those seeking to sell their labour can be assured that failing to do so for a given period of time will not result in homelessness, starvation, and death. In other words, until and unless we provide everyone with a basic income sufficient to support a modest living. As it stands, and as you observed, pay for work is based primarily on some ve…

I've been reading a bit of the anarchist literature on the topic. The traditional answer to unfair power structures is revolution and replacement of the power structures by something else. However, revolutionaries always seem to end up building similar power structures in one form or another. The abuses of Marxism against the general population were obvious, although it can be claimed that the Marxists did little mor…

I don't personally espouse anarchist principles, and frankly I think that they seek an impossible goal—I believe that it is human nature to organize into what are effectively governments.

I think the extent to which I believe "capitalism" is a viable system for the long run depends on just how you define "capitalism," since I've seen several different definitions that describe rather widely varying levels of inherent inequality and oppression. At the very basic level of "creating some form of market in which currency can be exchanged for goods and services", I believe it is absolutely a valuable part of any healthy socioeconomic system (and, indeed, a fairly natural and inevitable emergent behaviour).

I think that to a significant extent, the introduction of basic income could be accurately described as a revolution, even though it would (hopefully) not be one in the more literal, bloody, sense. Personally, I care deeply about the value of human life, so I believe that if there is a way to achieve whatever utopian ends we seek without having to resort to violent conflict, they should at least be explored thoroughly. I believe that, given time and protected from reactionaries and from serious corruption, a basic income would lead to radical changes in our society that benefit the many and reduce the ability of the few to control or otherwise oppress them.

As far as "Marxism" goes, while I admit that I haven't done any in-depth research on the topic myself, my understanding is that the countries that have declared themselves Communist and attempted to follow through, to whatever extent, on his manifesto, have never gone all the way through the process, and have by and large not been at all the type of economy he described as being viable candidates for a shift to Communism (largely agrarian economies, where Marx described primarily industrial ones). I don't know if Marxism can work at scale (though I have my doubts, related to my first point in this post), but I firmly believe that it has never been tried with any meaningful degree of faithfulness to his methods. In short, I think one should treat any self-proclaimed "Communist" country with at least the same degree of skepticism that one applies to self-applied system names such as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, and actually analyze the practices there to determine their form of government and economy.

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#142
post #91
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Markets are reactionary and thus too slow.

I think many would argue regulations are also reactionary (I.e., there were no laws to prohibit an action because it wasn’t anticipated until after it happened). Example: there were no laws preventing diluting stock during a hostile takeover until after Vanderbilt tried buying out the Erie Railroad and diluting stock was a way to swindle him [1] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erie_War#Watered-down_stocks

You get this, but it is worth stating explicitly.

They react to different types things. Both types are important, which is why we need markets as well as some amount of regulation.

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#143
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it? Does "negative freedom" include "freedom from reprisals for murder" ? Ie., in a society which maximises "negative freedom", is there no system of redress for murder? I do not think a libertarian believe so. Rather they have a prior morality in which certain actions "deserve" a redress -- ie., you are owed punishment, or you owe a victim (of, say, theft) what you have stolen from them. So everyone in this con…

A murderer is breaking the negative right of the victim not to be aggressed against. That would be a violation of the non-aggression principle. Also, they are doing property damage to the victim's body. (Yes, I'm being a bit whimsical here, but this would technically be a valid charge in this case, as far as I can tell.) From that point on out they are guilty of a crime for which they may be tried and punished. I don…

The problem is that everything in your comment refers to a moral principle.

So moral principles are prior to a discussion of freedom. The meaning of "negative freedom" isn't freedom as such. As in everyone can do anything (the Hobbesian state of nature).

Rather it is freedom after a choice of certain moral principles. The comment i'm responding to thinks that there's a logical contradiction between "freedom" and "redistribution" but there is none, because "freedom" has very little content.

It is always "freedom" after morality. And the diagreement therefore lies in "what we owe to each other", eg., here, you assert the non-aggression principle.

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't a law against using flammable building materials always be considered "regulation"?

I never said there should be no regulations at all, just that some regulations are not needed or excessive. For example, needing a training course, pass exams and have a professional license to sell flowers is stupid, while doing the same to drive a car is totally fine.

> some regulations are not needed or excessive

I think everyone belives this.

The challenge has always been finding the most useful laws, as well as preventing special interests and rent seeking.

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you ignore healthcare(!), you can actually live on that pretty well and put some cash away for emergencies. For sure. I didn't understand the comment I replied to to mean those who work though. That (including healthcare) is what you have in Europe if you don't work at all. I wasn't saying that tax money is wasted, quite the opposite, I was saying that most of the money is not in overhead, that is, it's reaching…

> That (including healthcare) is what you have in Europe if you don't work at all. No, if you don't work you don't have healthcare, only emergency care that I think it's similar to the one in US. Also the quality and availability of healthcare in Europe is degrading fast, mostly because there is no free lunch and it is impossible to cover unlimited medical care for everyone, it would cost more than the entire GBP of…

> No, if you don't work you don't have healthcare, only emergency care that I think it's similar to the one in US.

No, really, you do. I'm speaking for Germany here, if you're unemployed and on long term welfare, the state pays for your health insurance (and it's at a subsidized rate), you have the exact same health insurance as any normal employee that is using the public health insurance (which is the super majority, only a few industries, the self-employed and high-salary employees can opt for private insurance instead).

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been reading a bit of the anarchist literature on the topic. The traditional answer to unfair power structures is revolution and replacement of the power structures by something else. However, revolutionaries always seem to end up building similar power structures in one form or another. The abuses of Marxism against the general population were obvious, although it can be claimed that the Marxists did little mor…

I don't personally espouse anarchist principles, and frankly I think that they seek an impossible goal—I believe that it is human nature to organize into what are effectively governments. I think the extent to which I believe "capitalism" is a viable system for the long run depends on just how you define "capitalism," since I've seen several different definitions that describe rather widely varying levels of inherent…

I think anarchism with like-minded people is the only system that would really suit me at all. I don't like giving or taking orders, and have no desire to accumulate property beyond what I'm personally using. It's unfortunate that we are forced into systems that we have no interest in, but that's the nature of power and those that wield it.

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#147
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A murderer is breaking the negative right of the victim not to be aggressed against. That would be a violation of the non-aggression principle. Also, they are doing property damage to the victim's body. (Yes, I'm being a bit whimsical here, but this would technically be a valid charge in this case, as far as I can tell.) From that point on out they are guilty of a crime for which they may be tried and punished. I don…

The problem is that everything in your comment refers to a moral principle. So moral principles are prior to a discussion of freedom. The meaning of "negative freedom" isn't freedom as such. As in everyone can do anything (the Hobbesian state of nature). Rather it is freedom after a choice of certain moral principles. The comment i'm responding to thinks that there's a logical contradiction between "freedom" and "red…

So let's handle it as a moral question. The classical liberal claim is then that the moral right that certain things should not be done to you beats the moral right of others that you should do certain things for them. Which is exactly the distinction between negative and positive rights. And furthermore, that these will unavoidably conflict, wherefore the enforcement of positive rights must lead to morally inferior outcomes.

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#148
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that everything in your comment refers to a moral principle. So moral principles are prior to a discussion of freedom. The meaning of "negative freedom" isn't freedom as such. As in everyone can do anything (the Hobbesian state of nature). Rather it is freedom after a choice of certain moral principles. The comment i'm responding to thinks that there's a logical contradiction between "freedom" and "red…

So let's handle it as a moral question. The classical liberal claim is then that the moral right that certain things should not be done to you beats the moral right of others that you should do certain things for them. Which is exactly the distinction between negative and positive rights. And furthermore, that these will unavoidably conflict, wherefore the enforcement of positive rights must lead to morally inferior…

I'm not sure that is the distinction.

In a system of negative freedom contracts entail a duty to honor them, ie., are the source of obligations to others.

So a system of negative freedom is really just one where only you can obligate your future self to be duty bound to do something for someone else.

The libertarian still regards this as a duty, so it is a seemingly arbitrary one and contrary to "freedom as such".

The question "who decides what my duties are?" isnt even, in libertariaism, "only you". Because the duty to honor a contract is prior, ie., you are bound to it.

So the libertarian arbitrarily ringfenses a small number of principles to be prior to the question of freedom: NAP, contracts, etc.

The redistributionist can likewise ringfense some principles and claim to maximise freedom and hence to "morally superior outcomes".

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we've been trained to fixate on labels, because it limits our tools to solve problems, and the people in power don't want us solving these kinds of problems. Depending on which labels you (general you) ascribe to yourself, most ideas are DOA, because they don't fit in your identity box. Who cares if it's free market or not? A strong union presence is significantly more effective than a minimum wage. One amoun…

"A strong union presence is significantly more effective than a minimum wage." Why? To me it seems that governments have far stronger means to enforce a minimum wage than unions have.

A minimum wage is easy to enforce, but that's more of a bug than a feature. Minimum wages have two problems:

1) It's very hard to set it at a correct level. Too low and it does nothing; too high and it causes rampant unemployment. Set it at the right level and you can get some real benefits, but good luck figuring it out, considering that the right level changes from year to year, city to city, and industry to industry.

2) No matter how well you set it, it only impacts the bottom of the labour market.

A health labour market (including Northern European style unions) can help set wages intelligently, flexibly, and across all levels of the economy. The fact that unions (unlike the government) cannot just pick a number out of the air and enforce it by fiat is a key element of what makes it work.

Re: The Rise of the “Liberaltarian”

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That (including healthcare) is what you have in Europe if you don't work at all. No, if you don't work you don't have healthcare, only emergency care that I think it's similar to the one in US. Also the quality and availability of healthcare in Europe is degrading fast, mostly because there is no free lunch and it is impossible to cover unlimited medical care for everyone, it would cost more than the entire GBP of…

> No, if you don't work you don't have healthcare, only emergency care that I think it's similar to the one in US. No, really, you do. I'm speaking for Germany here, if you're unemployed and on long term welfare, the state pays for your health insurance (and it's at a subsidized rate), you have the exact same health insurance as any normal employee that is using the public health insurance (which is the super majorit…

Then please call it Germany, not Europe and we're all good.
Post reply on HN