Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera • Hacker News Board

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#751

Post by runjake » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 6:32 AM UTC

I use a small square of 3M yellow sticky sharpie over with black.

That’s what I do for my work MacBook.

At this point, with all the reported QA problems and my own QA problems with my work MBP, I am completely disinterested in acquiring any Apple notebooks — especially at their prices.

I babied my 2 year old work MBP and it’s had the keyboard go bad, the video ribbon go bad, and the batteries expanded enough they popped the case.

I babied this thing. I was careful with it, did all the best practice. The first failures were just out of warranty and Apple wouldn’t cover it.

In the old days, I always could trust that Apple would make it right. But those days are long gone. And so is my loyalty.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#752

Post by alexeichemenda » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 6:33 AM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #715

bloody-crow wrote: post #648

This statement has a number of issues. First, you have to trust Apple that the indicator _really_ can't be disabled. You also have to trust that there isn't a vulnerability Apple is not aware about that could allow rolling the camera without the light coming on. This has happened in the past [0] and there are known Apple products that are vulnerable, yet the statement never mentions this making you believe it's impos…

> First, you have to trust Apple that the indicator _really_ can't be disabled. You also have to trust that there isn't a vulnerability Apple is not aware about that could allow rolling the camera without the light coming on. I have made this point several times throughout this thread, so I apologize for repeating myself: Every laptop Apple has manufactured in the last ten years has an LED connected to the same circu…

You’re focused on the wrong part of the chain here. As the camera system is only as weak as it’s weakest link, if Apple indeed made a circuit connected to the LED (and I fully trust you on that), then the weakest link is elsewhere: company provided laptops are often altered prior to be given to an employee. I know of colonies who install software to track messages etc. What’s to say the same companies don’t alter the circuit board to modify the LED behavior?

There is a risk/reward/effort to look at, putting a small piece of tape is low risk / low effort / high reward (if your company actually angers laptops).

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#753

Post by metafunctor » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 6:35 AM UTC

I use web-based teleconferencing almost exclusively. Safari asks every time for permission to use the camera.

It would, of course, be better if camera access could be configured to require a Touch ID every time, controlled in T2 obviously. I would trust that.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#754

Post by shakna » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 6:37 AM UTC

Simon_says wrote: post #724

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, you have to trust Apple that the indicator _really_ can't be disabled. You also have to trust that there isn't a vulnerability Apple is not aware about that could allow rolling the camera without the light coming on. I have made this point several times throughout this thread, so I apologize for repeating myself: Every laptop Apple has manufactured in the last ten years has an LED connected to the same circu…

Can one power up the camera for only a few milliseconds? Enough to take a still photo, without the LED getting bright enough for a human to notice?

In the past, this was exactly how it was done. Here's an article on the FBI doing it with an Apple webcam six years ago [0].

Should be noted that was after Apple went to the effort of making a hardware delay to try and force the LED to turn on first, but it was still worked around.

[0] https://www.smh.com.au/technology/researchers-activate-apple...

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#755

Post by robin_reala » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 6:38 AM UTC

pfranz wrote: post #673

dathinab wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is what I like with the Lenovo webcams in T480s and probably later versions. They have a small slider with the camera protection "glass" build in which can cover the camera and will "show" a red dot if it's covered.

Old Apple iSight cameras (the stand alone tube shaped cameras) twisted an aperture closed to block the lens. It was also how you turned it off and on.

Should still work on modern macs if you chain together a FireWire 400 -> 800 / FW 800 -> ThunderBolt 2 / TB2 -> TB3 set of adaptors. Off to eBay…

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#756

Post by bnegreve » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 6:39 AM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #715

bloody-crow wrote: post #648

This statement has a number of issues. First, you have to trust Apple that the indicator _really_ can't be disabled. You also have to trust that there isn't a vulnerability Apple is not aware about that could allow rolling the camera without the light coming on. This has happened in the past [0] and there are known Apple products that are vulnerable, yet the statement never mentions this making you believe it's impos…

> First, you have to trust Apple that the indicator _really_ can't be disabled. You also have to trust that there isn't a vulnerability Apple is not aware about that could allow rolling the camera without the light coming on. I have made this point several times throughout this thread, so I apologize for repeating myself: Every laptop Apple has manufactured in the last ten years has an LED connected to the same circu…

> Every laptop Apple has manufactured in the last ten years has an LED connected to the same circuit which powers up the camera.

At the very least, I need a citation or an official statement. Because clearly, this has not always been the case [1]:

We describe how to disable the LED on a class of Apple internal iSight webcams used in some versions of MacBook laptops and iMac desktops.

[..] our investigation of the iSight revealed that it is designed around a microprocessor and a separate image sensor with an indicator LED sitting between them such that whenever the image sensor is transmitting images to the microcontroller, a hardware interlock illuminates the LED. We show how to reprogram the microcontroller with arbitrary, new firmware. This in turn enables us to reconfigure the image sensor, allowing us to bypass the hardware interlock and disable the LED.

[..] iSight webcam [was] found in previous generation Apple products including the iMac G5 and early Intel-based iMacs,MacBooks, and MacBook Pros until roughly 2008

Whatever reason Apple had to design the camera system this way back in 2008, is probably still a valid reason (cost, hardware simplicity, spacial constraints etc.). It means Apple and others have incentives to build camera systems that are easier to compromise. It's enough for me to worry.

[1] https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/bitstream/handle/1774.2...

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#757

Post by harha » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 6:39 AM UTC

bloody-crow wrote: post #648

This statement has a number of issues. First, you have to trust Apple that the indicator _really_ can't be disabled. You also have to trust that there isn't a vulnerability Apple is not aware about that could allow rolling the camera without the light coming on. This has happened in the past [0] and there are known Apple products that are vulnerable, yet the statement never mentions this making you believe it's impos…

I think the third point is especially strong argument for having the cover. It gives you a second physical layer of security rather than possibly a button you might automatically click away and it gives you the opportunity to join the call first and then decide to actually share (e.g. if the setting is more formal than expected or if the other side isn’t sharing).

Relying on the light going on after the fact is a much weaker protection, the user may have opted in to always letting an app use a camera and between the 15 or so UIs that the conference apps have the user might miss that it actually turns the camera on unless the button is clicked.

Now if apple were to release an os Level protection that automatically pulls up a screen showing what is shared from the view of the camera and asks for that approval, that would improve this situation.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#758

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 6:40 AM UTC

alexeichemenda wrote: post #752

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, you have to trust Apple that the indicator _really_ can't be disabled. You also have to trust that there isn't a vulnerability Apple is not aware about that could allow rolling the camera without the light coming on. I have made this point several times throughout this thread, so I apologize for repeating myself: Every laptop Apple has manufactured in the last ten years has an LED connected to the same circu…

You’re focused on the wrong part of the chain here. As the camera system is only as weak as it’s weakest link, if Apple indeed made a circuit connected to the LED (and I fully trust you on that), then the weakest link is elsewhere: company provided laptops are often altered prior to be given to an employee. I know of colonies who install software to track messages etc. What’s to say the same companies don’t alter the…

> What’s to say the same companies don’t alter the circuit board

The realities of modifying hardware. Is it possible? Sure. Is a company going to do it routinely at scale? Highly unlikely, because unlike software modifications, this would be pretty expensive. Are you aware of any companies that routinely do _hardware_ modifications on employee Macbooks?

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#759

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 6:41 AM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #715

bloody-crow wrote: post #648

This statement has a number of issues. First, you have to trust Apple that the indicator _really_ can't be disabled. You also have to trust that there isn't a vulnerability Apple is not aware about that could allow rolling the camera without the light coming on. This has happened in the past [0] and there are known Apple products that are vulnerable, yet the statement never mentions this making you believe it's impos…

> First, you have to trust Apple that the indicator _really_ can't be disabled. You also have to trust that there isn't a vulnerability Apple is not aware about that could allow rolling the camera without the light coming on. I have made this point several times throughout this thread, so I apologize for repeating myself: Every laptop Apple has manufactured in the last ten years has an LED connected to the same circu…

[deleted]

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#760

Post by mads » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 6:41 AM UTC

Most of the time, I have an external monitor connected to the laptop (with the laptop still open) and I usually wont notice if the camera is on just by looking at the LED.