Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America • Hacker News Board

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#171

Post by thethethethe » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 12:35 AM UTC

Acrobatic_Road wrote: post #161

Tiktaalik wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indigenous people have been in NA for an extremely long time and have sorted themselves into nations over that time just like any where else in the world. If there are overlapping disagreements between Indigenous Nations about land title, as there are with all sorts of modern nations around the world, there are lots of modern mechanisms to settle that. Not sure how any of this has any relevance or should be used as a…

It seems like you are trying to avoid the question. What gives indigenous peoples any moral high ground over later settlers? The indigenous* conquered land from each other and moved - an obvious fact which too often gets left out of the conversation. Then, the Europeans came along and possessed the lands for themselves. And you'll find the same story repeated on every corner of the earth. Continual occupation is just…

You are brushing off the systematic, mass genocide of native people and dispossession of their land by essentially saying that its happened throughout history, that it’s normal. I’m not really sure how this argument justifies anything. The colonization of America is recent. NA indigenous people are still alive and have special designated land that they were forced to move to. They weren’t even given citizenship by default until 1924–less than one hundred years ago

> continual occupation is just not a thing

I’m not sure where you are getting this. At what point is an occupation over? When the genocide is complete? That hasn’t even happened yet, NA indigenous people are still alive. Do you just expect they to submit, assimilate, and abandon their culture completely?

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#172

Post by waffle_ss » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 12:36 AM UTC

dang wrote: post #111

waffle_ss wrote: post #63

Human history is a story of conquest, and Native Americans fought - fought , not rolled over on their bellies - and were conquered by white settlers. It might not have been a very fair fight given the disparity in technology but it was a fight nonetheless. The natives were certainly fighting each other before whites arrived, too - the warrior role is an important part of many tribes' culture. Should the Comanche give…

Why do you use the word 'occupied'? I don't see that on the OP, and it seems like an unnecessary step into predictable flamewar to bring that up here instead of reacting to the specific and interesting content that's posted there. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Because that wording is used in the land acknowledgement that I'm most familiar with:

> I/We acknowledge that the University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire occupies the sacred and ancestral lands of Indigenous Peoples. I/We honor the land of the Ojibwe and Dakota Nations.

The posted website specifically calls out the map's purpose in fueling land acknowledgments,[1] so my comment is exactly on-topic for the posted content.

I purposefully didn't take the topic into flamebait territory with some parallels I could draw to growing anti-white animus with certain slurs that are tied to that (and other) words.

[1]: https://www.whose.land/en/whyacknowledge

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#173

Post by bluedevil2k » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 12:40 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #165

If you build a garage on your neighbor's land, and he doesn't do anything about it, in about 10 years it becomes your land.

False. There’s no such thing as “squatters rights” or anything or a statute of limitations. At any point the neighbor can sue you to protect his land. Further, when either property is sold, a survey will show the discrepency.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#174

Post by research_pie » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 12:40 AM UTC

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #141

simonsarris wrote: post #4

Somehow I doubt the Russians, English, Spanish, French etc that arrived in the Americas landed on a Westphalian continent. I think maps like this give the wrong impression. Wabanaki (among others) invited French colonists to settle Quebec in part to check (and perhaps attack) the Mohawk, among other conflicts. ex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaver_Wars I think it is almost universally agreed that the French treate…

In the wake of the French Revolution, the hyper-centralist French state, with an Enlightenment-era dislike of diversity and a fondness for "standardization", deliberately eradicated lots of cultural diversity within France -- the Breton and Occitan languages were nearly driven extinct, and Basque's survival is much less assured than on the Spanish side of the border. Were Canada still a French possession, that Parisi…

I doubt, the people from the "Nouvelle-France" have diverged a lot from their France counterpart integrating the culture of the native within their own. Most likely France would have lost control like England.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#175

Post by dylan-m » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 12:41 AM UTC

Acrobatic_Road wrote: post #136

rexpop wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For one thing, it's incredibly chauvinistic to dismiss pre-colombian society as "some nomads," and their mobility patterns as having "wandered". Nomadic life-ways aren't the thoughtless ramblings of a child at play, or a sub-sentient beast in simple reactionary pursuit of greener pastures. They summer here, winter there, raise children in these parts, and visit those for sport, trade, or agriculture. Their relationsh…

>Nomadic life-ways aren't the thoughtless ramblings of a child at play In 11th century eastern europe, Kipchaq nomads did the same - "wandering" as in following seasonal patterns within their lands. But it was not until the 17th century that the steppes were settled - and the settlers weren't Kipchaqs. Imagine if a modern day Ukrainian was presented with a similar indigenous map based on nomadic groups that once roam…

Is it written into Ukraine's laws (and then quietly ignored) that they should respect those groups' territories and negotiate treaties to resolve issues? Fun fact: British Columbia barely has any treaties because people have ignored the issue for decades. This is incredibly slow going: http://www.bctreaty.ca/negotiation-update.

Edit: Read about Nogais and Tatars instead of spewing nonsense :)

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#176

Post by Tiktaalik » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 12:49 AM UTC

Acrobatic_Road wrote: post #161

Tiktaalik wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indigenous people have been in NA for an extremely long time and have sorted themselves into nations over that time just like any where else in the world. If there are overlapping disagreements between Indigenous Nations about land title, as there are with all sorts of modern nations around the world, there are lots of modern mechanisms to settle that. Not sure how any of this has any relevance or should be used as a…

It seems like you are trying to avoid the question. What gives indigenous peoples any moral high ground over later settlers? The indigenous* conquered land from each other and moved - an obvious fact which too often gets left out of the conversation. Then, the Europeans came along and possessed the lands for themselves. And you'll find the same story repeated on every corner of the earth. Continual occupation is just…

[flagged]

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#177

Post by AlgorithmicTime » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 12:50 AM UTC

Tiktaalik wrote: post #153

Acrobatic_Road wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By what right did the the land belong to the native Americans? Do you think all the native tribes spilled out of Alaska and then neatly fitted themselves into mutually-recognized non-overlapping territories never to be disturbed?

Indigenous people have been in NA for an extremely long time and have sorted themselves into nations over that time just like any where else in the world. If there are overlapping disagreements between Indigenous Nations about land title, as there are with all sorts of modern nations around the world, there are lots of modern mechanisms to settle that. Not sure how any of this has any relevance or should be used as a…

Sure, but no Indian has been here longer than, for example, Hester Ford. That their ancestors were here before hers is not particularly important.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#178

Post by AlgorithmicTime » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 12:52 AM UTC

faitswulff wrote: post #123

A lot of comments arguing about the specifics of land ownership in this thread. I think the point of the website is that it's not our land unless you're indigenous.

In fact, it is "our" land, by right of conquest. Just as England belongs to the English by right of conquest.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#179

Post by codingdave » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 1:01 AM UTC

bluedevil2k wrote: post #173

WalterBright wrote: post #165

If you build a garage on your neighbor's land, and he doesn't do anything about it, in about 10 years it becomes your land.

False. There’s no such thing as “squatters rights” or anything or a statute of limitations. At any point the neighbor can sue you to protect his land. Further, when either property is sold, a survey will show the discrepency.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that this isn't true - the timeframes and exact rules differ by jurisdiction, and there are many actions an owner can take to prevent it, but there absolutely are scenarios where you can build on property that is not your own and end up owning it.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/adverse-possession-t...

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#180

Post by bjourne » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 1:10 AM UTC

Acrobatic_Road wrote: post #117

Maps like these give the false impression that nearly every square mile of land - even inhospitable desert regions, were once occupied by some native polity. Reality check: Most indigenous peoples lived in Mesoamerica, with < 10 million in what is now USA/Canada and that's being generous. There are regions of North America today that have no residents. By what grounds are these native lands - because some nomads once…

Maybe no one owns the land then? Owning land by purchasing a title registered in the State's land registry can hardly be a stronger claim than being a nomad wandering through.