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Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

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Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#371

Post by anang »

inopinatus wrote: post #278
foota wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My threat model doesn't involve someone disassembling my laptop and rewiring it, at that point they might as well just plant a bug.

This isn’t speculation. Opening up hardware to modify the internals is something that covert agencies do, and it’s naive to think that the purpose is equivalent to a simple bug. As someone who posts to Hacker News you are by almost any definition a potential information source or APT vector.

I think what they mean is their threat model is more drive by random attacks rather than concerted efforts by intelligence agencies.

For the former a piece of tape is enough.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#372

Post by GekkePrutser »

Closi wrote: post #188
aboutBen wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the T2 chip is compromised, then separate SoC protection is moot. The only true protection is a physical covering (like in the Lenovo) or physical kill switch (like the Purism laptops).

At that stage though all bets are off - the hackers have access to everything you have typed, all your files, all the audio from your microphones, your credit card details, those photos of you and your partner on the hard drive... Yet the camera on a laptop is the thing that we need to cover? It’s a weird security model, that’s all. Besides, on a MacBook it sounds like the webcam light is almost impossible to circumv…

Well Purism laptops have hardware switches for the microphones too.

But it's not even just for hackers. Zoom had the SUPER annoying habit of turning your cam on when the meeting organiser selected that everyone should cam.

This led to several colleagues being unaware they were being shown at that time. One was even lying in bed and called in from her phone. That's her business, it was 8pm at her location. But now everyone knows.

A hardware slider would have prevented all of these real-world problems.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#373

Post by xwdv »

alunchbox wrote: post #185
NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>2013: iSeeYou: Disabling the MacBook Webcam Indicator LED https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/36569 ... applies only to older Mac notebooks from like 2008 period which are long since obsolete according to Apple's announced support policy. >2016: Your Mac’s Camera Can Be Hacked https://www.intego.com/mac-security-blog/your-macs-camera-ca... . ... refers specifically the exploit above. >2016: Former NSA…

There's a reason Zukerberg's laptop has its mic and camera tapped up. It doesn't matter what device you use unless there's a physical switch to disconnect it'll never be safe. Software can ALWAYS have zero days, just because it hasn't been exploited yet doesn't mean it can't be.

> There's a reason Zukerberg's laptop has its mic and camera tapped up.

Virtue signaling mostly.

It’s not difficult to open a laptop and remove those components all together. Especially for someone like Zuckerberg.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#374

Post by iso947 »

rahkiin wrote: post #265
godelski wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why people have window curtains and close them at night. If you have them closed then you can't see the person spying on you outside. Door locks are more important. This is what you sound like. The things can be used in conjunction with one another. It is not an or scenario, you can have both. You can also have covers which don't cover the indicator. You use different deterrent mechanisms for diffe…

In the Netherlands we don’t really close curtains at night. I also have no camera cover.

Don’t you have bright lights outside? Do you like being woken at the crack of dawn?

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#375

Post by PascLeRasc »

sscarduzio wrote: post #301
cgriswald wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, by the time the indicator is noticed, it may be too late. Even with the LED wired in place and a 'feature' (capacitor or software?) forcing it to stay lit for 3 seconds, the damage may be done. It does, at least, let you know an attack occurred. I really think an LED is barking up the wrong tree. A built-in hardware cover would have the same effect as the LED, and no one would have to trust it, since the cam…

Ironically for Americans' wariness China, the "pop-up webcam" in Huawei laptops completely resolves the security and trust issue, by providing a physical way to disable the camera. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKY3hvYKPpA Too bad it mainly shows your nostrils :(

The attack most people are worried about is your camera being activated while your laptop is open. Huawei's approach seems worse since you can't just apply a cover to it.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#377

Post by GekkePrutser »

scarface74 wrote: post #154
dathinab wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't matter. For many people the trust in integrated laptop cameras has been thoroughly eroded especially in case of Macs. (From my experience by interacting with people not having much tech experience, limited to Germany, maybe also limited to the social cycle(s) I interacted with.) The paradox thing is that the same people who often don't trust webcams in Apple Laptops or Apple All-In-One PCs do not bother or ev…

Even though you could get far more information by hacking the built in microphone.....

My Mac Mini has neither :)

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#378

Post by _kst_ »

ohazi wrote: post #202
the-pigeon wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But can't you specifically wire the indicator light to always be lit if the camera has power? I don't see Apple claiming they've done that but a correct design would make the indicator light work that way and be related to software at all. Meaning you could only disable the indicator light by physically modifying the device.

This is the only correct design, yet almost nobody does this. One of the challenges is verifying that this was done correctly. You may be able to verify a design like this once with a teardown, but it's impractical to verify your particular device, and next to impossible to re-verify this every time you leave your laptop unattended.

My work laptop (a Thinkpad) has a built-in plastic slider that physically covers the camera. If something activates the camera while that cover is closed, it won't see anything.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#379

Post by shard »

valuearb wrote: post #351
soulofmischief wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's circular logic. People forget simply because camera covers are not common enough, so it's not a valid argument for why they shouldn't be more common.

People forget because you have to train yourself to remember, and outside of intelligence agency personnel, no one is doing that. Camera covers are just another example of security for show. Having a camera cover on a pc without a hard wired camera indicator like Macs have means you will never know how many of those times you were filmed after forgetting to slide your camera cover over.

I don't think anyone suggested removing the LED camera indicator if a camera cover is added. They serve different functions, even though there is an intersection. The camera LED indicates whether the camera is powered on or off, when the LED functions correctly. The cover guarantees that the camera cannot capture video when closed.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#380

Post by soulofmischief »

valuearb wrote: post #311
soulofmischief wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A simple built-in camera cover is not a cosmetic doodad. And physical covers cannot be remotely hacked, unlike the active camera light which has been overridden multiple times. If we're talking about focusing on security, then the choice should be clear.

Mac camera lights can’t be hacked. And tell you exactly when it’s in use.

Can you back this claim with references?
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