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U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

reuters.com

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#961

Post by zach_garwood »

boomersooner wrote: post #943
jake_morrison wrote: post #747

We have to recognize how much we screwed over the Native Americans. We took away their prime land on the East coast. We gave them some shitty land in Oklahoma that we didn't think we would ever want. We made them walk there in the "Trail of Tears", and lots of them died along the way. Then we decided to screw them out of the land in Oklahoma after all, but didn't go though the process properly because we didn't think…

As an Okie and a tribal member, the situation is far more complex than what the news/wikipedia can describe. But I think that's mentioned here a lot- the news never does anything justice. The Indians do get billions handed out all the time -ihs.gov. One of the fundamental issues I see in Oklahoma is the lack of rule of law. I'm not thrilled we're releasing child molesters (that's who filed the suit), but I suppose st…

The suit doesn't claim he shouldn't be tried for his crimes. It claims he should be tried by a federal court, not a state court. Nobody is "releasing" any criminals here.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#962

Post by stormbrew »

tremon wrote: post #945
stormbrew wrote: post #871

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This analogy falls apart rather quickly when you recognize that the north american indigenous population still suffers greatly under legal systems built on the treaties that weren't even honored while the descendants of those who perpetrated great crimes against them collectively constitute the greatest mass of wealth in the history of the world while also pretending to have done nothing wrong. Re-do your analogy but…

tell me again how little you owe that kid That's actually not that hard to do, both from a legal and a moral standpoint. Legally, the "you" in your analogy has never committed an unlawful act and is therefore not personally beholden to any restitution to the victim's side. It is the purveyance of a well-functioning justice system to provide adequate restitution for victims of crimes, but that does not extend to a per…

Original sin is the idea that a dude ate an apple some number of thousands of years ago and an all powerful (and allegedly all knowing) being got grumpy at him for it for some reason and now we all suffer for his intransigence.

In fact, the concept of original sin requires that we exist in a state of punishment for that sin permanently, not that we continue to benefit from it by, again, existing in the wealthiest civilization that has ever existed on this planet.

This is again a poor analogy, framing us as victims of an aggressor who wants something from us that we cannot give.

As for the geneva conventions, please note that colonial relations to indigenous people violated just about every single one of the geneva conventions. Forced resettlement, biological warfare, collective punishment, the destruction of non-military targets -- it is not "collective punishment" to expect there to be at least a moderate reparation for crimes committed. What is even the point of the concept of "war crimes" if you can get away with them just because "oh it's been too long".

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#963

Post by pessimizer »

tremon wrote: post #945
stormbrew wrote: post #871

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This analogy falls apart rather quickly when you recognize that the north american indigenous population still suffers greatly under legal systems built on the treaties that weren't even honored while the descendants of those who perpetrated great crimes against them collectively constitute the greatest mass of wealth in the history of the world while also pretending to have done nothing wrong. Re-do your analogy but…

tell me again how little you owe that kid That's actually not that hard to do, both from a legal and a moral standpoint. Legally, the "you" in your analogy has never committed an unlawful act and is therefore not personally beholden to any restitution to the victim's side. It is the purveyance of a well-functioning justice system to provide adequate restitution for victims of crimes, but that does not extend to a per…

If you unintentionally buy stolen property, should you be obligated to return it to the original owner (with adequate proof of such) when requested? If you are forced to return it, are you being held responsible for your heritage?

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#964

Post by frenchy »

throwaway20148 wrote: post #855
_se wrote: post #757

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that people live there doesn't make it desirable. People will always defend where they live. Don't be naive.

The land around the Ouchita Mountains is not shitty at all. In fact it’s gorgeous.

Mountains are gorgeous when you have plenty of food and shelter, like we do now. They're shitty if you're a subsistence farmer in the 1800's.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#965

Post by secabeen »

kelnos wrote: post #717
supernova87a wrote: post #700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The source of the possession being law is understandable. I guess what is bonkers or could use some (historical?) explanation is why real property is given an allowance to be taken through use by others, when the ownership of the land is recorded (though probably unmarked physically). To some, extending that logic might say, I have a right to take this bike because it's just sitting in front of a house unused. Is it…

That's a really good question, and I wonder as well. I tend to believe that land is just different from things like manufactured goods. There's a fixed amount of land (modulo landfill and such), and we all have to live on it. People disagree as to how land should be used, and people believe they should get a say in how other people's land is used because land is a common good. Land isn't fungible; some people would p…

I think the other important angle is that land is often the foundation of other property (structures, improvements, etc.) You own land, but care so little about that land that someone else builds some other property on it. Then 20 years later you notice, and try to claim it back, what do you do about the structure and improvements? The adverse possession laws give an incentive to actual owners to exercise their ownership now, rather than incentivizing them to stay silent, so as to later claim the land and all improvements for free.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#966

Post by ryanmarsh »

AlotOfReading wrote: post #959
ryanmarsh wrote: post #948

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This map shows why Houston is such a shit hole (I live here). I often explain there were no dominant indigenous tribes in the Houston area when white men settled because it was a malaria infested swamp. That's what the summers feel like. No one in their right mind would live here without air conditioning.

I believe the atakapa did live in the area. The map is just incomplete, unfortunately.

Yes, anywhere the fishing is good you can find evidence of a tribe. However, further inland (50+ mi) in the flooding swampy flats or “coastal plains” specifically around Houston there is little evidence of previous inhabitants.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#967

Post by pathseeker »

Angostura wrote: post #157
pathseeker wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean "them"? You do realize that there were many different tribes who had very drastically different interactions with the US, right?

I believe the answer would be > Native Americans. Whether that encompasses multiple tribes or not, doesn't change that.

Of course it changes it. How do you "give Oklahoma" to a bunch of distinct nations that have no relationship?

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#968

Post by jaybeeayyy »

SambalOelek wrote: post #939
berryjerry wrote: post #862

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find your use of "we" interesting because you clearly identify as part of the group that committed those acts hundreds of years ago. How long should a child be responsible for the crimes of their fathers? As an example, assume your father killed someone and stole $1000 dollars from them. You never knew about this didn't choose for him to do this but now someone is coming after you saying you must pay them $1000. Yo…

I am quite surprised to see this default-to-no-action comment here on HN. Sometimes, a problem isn't your fault, but you are still compelled to fix it. If people have this attitude, then "we" (as a species) are absolutely screwed vis-a-vis climate change. In a generation, nobody is going to be around who did all the polluting, and hopefully everyone doesn't just sit around saying "Well I didn't do it!"

Is that really surprising on HN? IME there's always been a pretty big politically right leaning presence on here.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#969

Post by pininja »

skywhopper wrote: post #660
rossdavidh wrote: post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, there is a similar situation legally with regard to copyrights, trademarks, etc. If you don't enforce them, eventually, they are no longer considered valid. Note that IANAL and I haven't investigated this in depth. I think the idea is that most people aren't computers processing laws as if they were code; most humans have to primarily go by what they see happening around them in order to decide wh…

True for trademarks since by definition it’s a claim on some unique usage of a word or mark. Not the case (anymore, as of 1976) for copyright, at least in the US.

The lone “Standard Oil” gas station in San Francisco is good example of Chevron holding onto a unique usage of that trademark.

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/standard-oil-gas-station

EDIT: they have one each in 16 states, so not exactly “lone”

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#970

Post by leetcrew »

danShumway wrote: post #941
bzb3 wrote: post #869

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What GP expresses is called white guilt, and it's brutally amplified by the media nowadays. If you don't feel bad for what your ancestors did, you're a terrible person... Even though you didn't have anything to do with their choices.

I have no personal guilt over my ancestors. I have sympathy for the problems they created, and I have some culpability in benefiting from them. But it's not about guilt. The problem hasn't been fixed yet, and we are responsible for fixing it. Since HN is the world of programming analogies: I inherit a broken, bug-filled codebase when signing on for a new job. A year into continued development, a team mentions to me t…

I don't think this is a particularly good analogy either. you don't have some moral obligation to fix up the old code for the other team. you do it because that's what you're getting paid for. if you really don't feel like fixing it, there's nothing wrong with quitting the job.
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