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John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)

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Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)

#51

Post by pjc50 »

ceejayoz wrote: post #47
qqj wrote: post #45

Assuming the majority of hn is US-based, you folks have to understand that PC culture is often seen as a joke at best and an extension of typical American hypocrisy at worst (i.e. the usual double-speak and fake politeness that covers actual opinions and motivations). Sure, the PC/SJW wave is gaining momentum outside of the US as well, as the cultural influence is significant but it still remains an odd thing for mos…

> just look at the Gillette ads Decrying political correctness and then complaining Gilette ran an ad with a message you didn't like , to the point of calling it oppression , is just... amazing. Is this satire?

This is just how the dishonesty of discourse works at this point. People aren't really prepared to defend to the death the right of Gillette to run adverts they don't like.

When I say I don't like something, it's free speech; when you say you don't like something it's cancel culture.

Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)

#52

Post by shadowgovt »

Wolfenstein98k wrote: post #26
shadowgovt wrote: post #2

Perhaps worth noting: This is the same John Cleese that has decried London becoming a multicultural city that is "no longer English." https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/john-cleese-is-cancel...

How is this worth noting at all? Either he's correct or he's not, ad hominem is fallacious. Please engage with ideas on their merits rather than by reading through the author's tweets until you eventually find something unfashionable and unrelated.

Because the Big Think was recorded in 2016. It's interesting to see where the Big Thoughts have led him in the intervening 3 years.

Engaging ideas on their merits isn't the same as engaging them in a vacuum.

Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)

#53

Post by blub »

Wolfenstein98k wrote: post #26
shadowgovt wrote: post #2

Perhaps worth noting: This is the same John Cleese that has decried London becoming a multicultural city that is "no longer English." https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/john-cleese-is-cancel...

How is this worth noting at all? Either he's correct or he's not, ad hominem is fallacious. Please engage with ideas on their merits rather than by reading through the author's tweets until you eventually find something unfashionable and unrelated.

Not the first time this kind of ad-hominem's happened in relation to PC culture: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19750395

Notice the reasoning that person gives for calling Murray a racist. Among other things, because he refuses to call some other bloke called Robinson a racist.

Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)

#54

Post by ceejayoz »

the-dude wrote: post #43
ceejayoz wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is "I got mistaken for a woman because of my hairstyle" a racist thing?

It is about cancer whore , not the mistaken identity. This term is only used by immigrants towards native women.

Well, and Dutch-born white musicians, it'd seem.

https://www.dagelijksestandaard.nl/2019/11/talentloze-tuigra...

Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)

#55

Post by blub »

shadowgovt wrote: post #52
Wolfenstein98k wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this worth noting at all? Either he's correct or he's not, ad hominem is fallacious. Please engage with ideas on their merits rather than by reading through the author's tweets until you eventually find something unfashionable and unrelated.

Because the Big Think was recorded in 2016. It's interesting to see where the Big Thoughts have led him in the intervening 3 years. Engaging ideas on their merits isn't the same as engaging them in a vacuum.

Where have the big thoughts led him? Maybe you could post that directly instead of some vague innuendo and save us all some wasted time.

Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)

#56

Post by shadowgovt »

jacknews wrote: post #19
shadowgovt wrote: post #2

Perhaps worth noting: This is the same John Cleese that has decried London becoming a multicultural city that is "no longer English." https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/john-cleese-is-cancel...

This is a little bit QED. If 'who said it' and 'what views do they hold' is more important than what they're actually saying, then we've become post-rational, and well on our way back to less open and enlightened culture.

It is a failing of some philosophical debate to try and consider ideas in a vacuum.

When considering something John Cleese said, one can consider where John Cleese has gone in the 3 years since he said it.

In Cleese's case, our understanding of his idea of "political correctness" is informed by his subsequent exiting of the UK because he feels London is "no longer English."

Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)

#57

Post by shadowgovt »

the-dude wrote: post #40
pjc50 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Street abuse is never OK regardless of who it's from, you don't have to pretend there's a racial conspiracy to stop you discussing it.

Thanks for the kind words. I am not pretending there is a conspiracy at all. The PC is out in the open.

Can you give some concrete examples of someone being censured for criticizing people being called cancer-whore? It's not out of the realm of possibility, but that seems an extraordinary claim.

Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)

#58

Post by ralmidani »

I can understand how some people see complete validity in Cleese's argument that those hurt by someone's words/behavior should "control their own emotions" rather than demand that the offending party be more considerate of their emotions, but I do not.

Black people should not have to "control their own emotions" when a non-Black person uses the N-word to get a cheap laugh, like, etc. at their expense.

Muslims should not have to "control their own emotions" when bullies taunt someone with the name Osama.

Women should not have to "control their own emotions" when they see evenly qualified, hard-working, and valuable (and often less qualified, hard-working, and valuable) male colleagues getting most of the kudos, visibility, raises, and promotions within their organizations and industries.

(Disclosure: I am a non-Black Muslim male who does not have the name Osama)

Emotions are things you feel deep down, and when those emotions are justified, they matter more to me than an inconsiderate asshole's ability to open their trap with no filter, or behave badly with no fear of consequences. I'm not saying offensive words/behavior should land people in jail, but I have no problem with corporations, journalists, social media, and private individuals imposing their own consequences.

Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)

#59

Post by qqj »

ceejayoz wrote: post #47
qqj wrote: post #45

Assuming the majority of hn is US-based, you folks have to understand that PC culture is often seen as a joke at best and an extension of typical American hypocrisy at worst (i.e. the usual double-speak and fake politeness that covers actual opinions and motivations). Sure, the PC/SJW wave is gaining momentum outside of the US as well, as the cultural influence is significant but it still remains an odd thing for mos…

> just look at the Gillette ads Decrying political correctness and then complaining Gilette ran an ad with a message you didn't like , to the point of calling it oppression , is just... amazing. Is this satire?

It is an amusing example of cynical exploitation on behalf of advertising agencies, leveraging the expected controversy on social media fueled by PC culture.

Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)

#60

Post by msla »

scubbo wrote: post #32
msla wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd make mention of the fact they likely think the English can be British, but they also probably imagine that a good Englishman can eat pork and beef!

Can you elaborate? What does this mean?

It's a long joke about word etymology relating to how many times the Green and Pleasant Land has been conquered:

"Britain" relates to "Briton" which used to mean a Celtic native of the British isles. That is, the people who were there when the Romans showed up.

"English" comes from the Angles, one of the Germanic peoples who colonized Britain when the Romans left. Etymologically, being English and British means you're of a mixed parentage indeed, and rather proves the case that immigrants integrate quite well.

"Pork" and "beef" come from Norman French, "Norman" from the fact they were originally Vikings and French from the fact they settled in Normandy before expanding their holdings in 1066. Again, proof that modern Great Britain is a land of immigrants, strivers, and hopefuls from across the water, going back to time immemorial.

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