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John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)

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Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)

#31

"If people can't control their own emotions, then they have to start trying to control other people's behaviour." Watching the current state of the western world, apparently only very few people have the ability to reflect on themself enough to realize this. Hopefully this is only a loud minorty. I maybe the wrong person to judge, but imho, we need to resolutely oppose the PC- and cancel culture.

(disclaimer - I haven't watched the video, because a. it's a video, come on, and b. John Cleese's attitudes are already well-known to me from many other sources, interviews, etc.)

> If people can't control their own emotions, then they have to start trying to control other people's behaviour.

Yes, this statement is exactly true - but not in the way that John, and you, seem to think.

One interpretation - yours, if I may be forgiven for assuming - is "PC-culture only exists because people do not have a thick-enough skin to simply regulate their own emotional well-being. If they would only toughen up, then there would be no need for all this nonsense - we could finally express ourselves freely once again".

The alternative interpretation - and one that I really hope you can find your way to understanding - is "some people are subjected to so much pain, aggression, discrimination, and hatred - or, some other people witness so much of that pain in others - that, no matter how hard they try, they simply cannot suppress their responses to it - nor should they. Rather, they speak up about the injustices they see, and try to change them."

The classic anti-PC attitude of "toughen up and stop complaining" is so monumentally selfish and short-sighted that it feels like parody. If someone is stepping on your foot, the appropriate response is not to "control your response" - it's to ask them to stop stepping on your foot. If their response is "I'm not" - then you either need to educate them that they are, in fact, doing so (and you would know better than them), or take the initiative to physically prevent them from continuing to do so.

Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)

#32
post #12
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The English complaining about natives losing power would be a bit rich, wouldn't it?

I'd make mention of the fact they likely think the English can be British, but they also probably imagine that a good Englishman can eat pork and beef!

Can you elaborate? What does this mean?

Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cultural identity is never lost, but cultural identity is always changing.

Sure, I will have a shot at describing some change. I am a blond male who has a bit of a feminine hairstyle, which imho matches my body type. In the last month I have been called cancer whore ( Dutch: kankerhoer ) twice, this is new for me. However, young females have been called cancer whore for years now, and it is the political correctness which supresses discussion about this. Because that would be racist.

Street abuse is never OK regardless of who it's from, you don't have to pretend there's a racial conspiracy to stop you discussing it.

Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a little bit QED. If 'who said it' and 'what views do they hold' is more important than what they're actually saying, then we've become post-rational, and well on our way back to less open and enlightened culture.

Who said it and what views they hold is important for distinguishing between what they technically said and what they actually said.

I think only in the context of identity politics.

Those subtleties of messaging can certainly indicate affiliation.

But that's exactly what I'm saying. If that's become more important than the actual arguments, were headed down.

Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)

#35

From one perspective, the rise of Politically Correct English evinces a kind of Lenin-to-Stalinesque irony. That is, the same ideological principles that informed the original Descriptivist revolution---namely, the rejections of traditional authority (born of Vietnam) and of traditional inequality (born of the civil rights movement)---have now actually produced a far more inflexible Prescriptivism, one largely unencu…

This is an amazing DFW essay and probably one of the only places that notes American Black English as an actual entity and a tricky issue to deal with, especially as an educator.

It is exceptionally well written.

Cultivating a Democratic Spirit is very hard to do, and harder still 20 years on since he wrote it.

Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cultural identity is never lost, but cultural identity is always changing.

Sure, I will have a shot at describing some change. I am a blond male who has a bit of a feminine hairstyle, which imho matches my body type. In the last month I have been called cancer whore ( Dutch: kankerhoer ) twice, this is new for me. However, young females have been called cancer whore for years now, and it is the political correctness which supresses discussion about this. Because that would be racist.

How is "I got mistaken for a woman because of my hairstyle" a racist thing?

Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)

#37
post #5

Most folks are in favor of some form of "political correctness", in the form of polite manners. The threshold should be different in comedy versus, say, the boardroom. It's not surprising Cleese, as a comedian, is focused on that aspect of things, but you can get equally Orwellian with fervent opposition to vaguely defined "PC" stuff too. People who lose their shit over "Happy Holidays", as an example.

Unfortunately, many people are so easily offended that they're willing to vote in favor of laws that ban impolite expression across the board.

Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)

#39

Perhaps worth noting: This is the same John Cleese that has decried London becoming a multicultural city that is "no longer English." https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/john-cleese-is-cancel...

This is a little bit QED. If 'who said it' and 'what views do they hold' is more important than what they're actually saying, then we've become post-rational, and well on our way back to less open and enlightened culture.

It does give a little context if their support for free speech ends when your skin isn't white; only white British should be able to shape London.

Of course he has a point. We should absolutely resist creating thought crimes and police states, but we should also prohibit hateful action.

We can do both, sensibly. Shouting about every slippery slope on the way doesn't help anyone.

Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)

#40
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I will have a shot at describing some change. I am a blond male who has a bit of a feminine hairstyle, which imho matches my body type. In the last month I have been called cancer whore ( Dutch: kankerhoer ) twice, this is new for me. However, young females have been called cancer whore for years now, and it is the political correctness which supresses discussion about this. Because that would be racist.

Street abuse is never OK regardless of who it's from, you don't have to pretend there's a racial conspiracy to stop you discussing it.

Thanks for the kind words.

I am not pretending there is a conspiracy at all. The PC is out in the open.

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