One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud • Hacker News Board

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#141

Post by unishark » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 4:51 AM UTC

sethhochberg wrote: post #27

distances wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your extracurriculars, who you are as a person, anything on your resume is irrelevant. All that matters is your score. Sounds absolutely brutal. That said, I was caught with the quoted paragraph. Why should your extracurricular hobbies or "you as a person" matter? As far as I see, all that should be considered in university admissions is indeed your test scores.

You'll see the term "well rounded" thrown around a lot in discussions like this. The idea is that elite schools (or even just good ones) can take their pick of academic high-performers, so they seek out students who are more than just academic high performers. They become very interested in questions like "does this person have volunteer experience that might have exposed them to a worldview larger than themselves?",…

I think it's more about trying to identify people with self-agency and leadership qualities. Schools generally prefer to have an above-average-intelligence alum who changes the world, over a brilliant alum who retreats from it and gains their satisfaction in life from introverted pursuits like learning things.

College itself is where you get a larger worldview. Requiring people have it already seems like a great way to exclude people trapped by family and financial constraints.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#142

Post by closeparen » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 5:00 AM UTC

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #110

HeavenFox wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These exams differ from SAT in three major ways. First, they are offered once a year. Didn't do as well as you hope? Try again next year. Second, the material is significantly harder. Take math as an example. The exam questions are a lot closer to AMC/AIME than to SAT. In fact, suppose language is not a problem, many Chinese middle schooler would do pretty well on SAT's math section. Also you are not allowed any calc…

> Also you are not allowed any calculator. Calculators shouldn’t be allowed on any mathematics examination. With limited exceptions, high-school mathematics and beyond is not really about arithmetic or numerical solutions, but about demonstrating understanding, which you don’t need a calculator for. Questions on exams that use numerics also put people with dyscalculia at a disadvantage even if they have great ability…

Maybe in China. AP Calculus BC and everything up to it is about fast and reliable execution of rote-learned algorithms.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#143

Post by visarga » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 5:03 AM UTC

TrackerFF wrote: post #83

HeavenFox wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These exams differ from SAT in three major ways. First, they are offered once a year. Didn't do as well as you hope? Try again next year. Second, the material is significantly harder. Take math as an example. The exam questions are a lot closer to AMC/AIME than to SAT. In fact, suppose language is not a problem, many Chinese middle schooler would do pretty well on SAT's math section. Also you are not allowed any calc…

Here in Norway, we don't have any entrance exams - your HS grades are the only thing that counts - along with some extra points for age, military service, etc. For the most prestigious University majors, this results in two sets of students: Those that had good enough grades to get in on their first try, straight out of school - or those that simply have to wait X number of years, until they've re-taken enough classe…

I have had to get admitted to high-school and college by a similar 'one exam' system, and in my time you could only pick just one high-school or college to apply to. This forced me to learn really hard in the 8th and 12th grades, like everyone in my generation. Admission was solely based on the exam score. It was scary but it made for well prepared students.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#144

Post by TwoBit » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 5:07 AM UTC

dghughes wrote: post #61

Sometimes it's no better here in the west. I know of a situation where a Chinese student fabricated every source for a paper. Completely made up everything. The professor saw right through it immediately and failed her. But the university big wigs told the professor to give the student a passing grade. The student graduated university.

In the United States? Reference?

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#145

Post by Thorentis » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 5:13 AM UTC

nelsondev wrote: post #114

zozin wrote: post #37

This is enraging. Identity theft in the United States can be a headache, sure, but in most cases the financial institutions are the ones taking the brunt of the damage, and even that is probably covered by some sort of insurance scheme. This woman had her entire life stripped away from her, not to mention making her doubt her own abilities by implying she “failed” the exam. How do these people live with themselves, e…

Why did you feel the need to say “western sense of morality” rather than just “sense of morality”? The article describes national outrage at this story of injustice, your implication is that a larger “eastern” sense of morality has allowed this to happen, rather than the corrupt individuals named.

Have a look at statistics on corruption in non-Western countries. Then compare those to that of Western countries. Bribes, cover-ups, corruption, and so on, is rife. At least in western countries most people have the shame to try and hide it. But in many cultures, what we would consider a bribe, is simply a part of doing business.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#146

Post by Thorentis » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 5:14 AM UTC

iateanapple wrote: post #49

zozin wrote: post #37

This is enraging. Identity theft in the United States can be a headache, sure, but in most cases the financial institutions are the ones taking the brunt of the damage, and even that is probably covered by some sort of insurance scheme. This woman had her entire life stripped away from her, not to mention making her doubt her own abilities by implying she “failed” the exam. How do these people live with themselves, e…

> It boggles the mind that people can live with themselves and can carry on living with such guilt. Then again, maybe it’s my western sense of morality that tells me the perpetrator should feel guilt. Perhaps they don’t... The average westerner walks around in clothing made by incredibly desperate people living in poverty who work long hours in horrible conditions.

You can't feel guilt if you don't know about something. I'd say most people don't even know where half the things they own come from.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#147

Post by 9992B80F » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 5:40 AM UTC

kbenson wrote: post #70

> Until today, the imposter's colleagues still know her as Chen Chunxiu, say media reports. Her degree has since been revoked and she has been sacked from her job. A government report says she is still under investigation. Is it nuts to anyone else that the more powerful, socially connected person stole the poorer but better scoring person's identity for not only school, but continued to be her professionally for yea…

> Is it nuts to anyone else that the more powerful, socially connected person stole the poorer but better scoring person's identity for not only school, but continued to be her professionally for years after?

For Chinese professionals, your school network -- the alumni and peers -- is a large influence in finding a job after graduation and helping get promoted.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#148

Post by oxAAAFFB » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 5:58 AM UTC

dghughes wrote: post #61

Sometimes it's no better here in the west. I know of a situation where a Chinese student fabricated every source for a paper. Completely made up everything. The professor saw right through it immediately and failed her. But the university big wigs told the professor to give the student a passing grade. The student graduated university.

I can attest that cheating is rampant in the UC system. Especially among Asian nationals. College is mostly a joke at this point.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#149

Post by jackjeff » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 6:05 AM UTC

thewarrior wrote: post #45

zozin wrote: post #37

This is enraging. Identity theft in the United States can be a headache, sure, but in most cases the financial institutions are the ones taking the brunt of the damage, and even that is probably covered by some sort of insurance scheme. This woman had her entire life stripped away from her, not to mention making her doubt her own abilities by implying she “failed” the exam. How do these people live with themselves, e…

The western sense of morality didn’t stop the admissions scandals to all top western universities like Harvard Stanford and so on. Chinese universities as far as I know don’t have things like institutionalized legacy admissions. I’d like people to reconsider the view that western societies are somehow inherently purer or less corrupt. Often it takes different forms. This can be seen in the way sanctions are imposed f…

Maybe that’s a bit grand to say “Western Society” where both examples would not apply to other non English speaking Western countries.

The American high incarcerations rate is an exception in the western world.

Legacy admissions simply do not exist in countries like France or Germany. Some elite engineering colleges in France have an exam based admission system very similar to the Chinese one but identity theft on this scale has never occurred.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#150

Post by Bayart » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 6:09 AM UTC

thewarrior wrote: post #45

zozin wrote: post #37

This is enraging. Identity theft in the United States can be a headache, sure, but in most cases the financial institutions are the ones taking the brunt of the damage, and even that is probably covered by some sort of insurance scheme. This woman had her entire life stripped away from her, not to mention making her doubt her own abilities by implying she “failed” the exam. How do these people live with themselves, e…

The western sense of morality didn’t stop the admissions scandals to all top western universities like Harvard Stanford and so on. Chinese universities as far as I know don’t have things like institutionalized legacy admissions. I’d like people to reconsider the view that western societies are somehow inherently purer or less corrupt. Often it takes different forms. This can be seen in the way sanctions are imposed f…

>The western sense of morality didn’t stop the admissions scandals to all top western universities like Harvard Stanford and so on. Chinese universities as far as I know don’t have things like institutionalized legacy admissions.

As far as I'm aware, it's an American trope, not a « Western » one. But it makes sense that kind of practice would occur in the US where universities were founded by communities to educate their own people, rather than as extensions of the State.