One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud • Hacker News Board

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#131

Post by dang » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 3:37 AM UTC

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #122

dang wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't post nationalistic flamebait to HN, even if you're personally of that nation. It starts flamewars either way, and we don't want those here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I don't think it's really flamebait to make that observation. There genuinely are significant cultural differences regarding what's regarded as fair play between various regions in the world. That needs to be understood, particularly among readers of HN who, as a demographic, work with co-workers, contractors, or businesses across borders more often than the average population.

If you don't think it's flamebait, you haven't seen the flamewars that such comments lead to. It's our job to be the fire department here. If someone tosses off a lit match at a gas station, that's either arson or criminal negligence, and the fires burn the same either way.

There are good reasons why the site guidelines say "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." and "Eschew flamebait." It's not as if we sat down and dreamt them up one day. They come from many years of experience and directly address how internet forums function, and commenters here need to follow them.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#132

Post by JoshuaDavid » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 3:38 AM UTC

KSteffensen wrote: post #120

creato wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s just that the money went to a third party instead of the college in the scandalous cases. That's a pretty huge difference. Letting someone donate money in exchange for admission smells bad, but if the donation is larger than the cost, they made more room for others than they occupied themselves. If a third party captures the "donation", that's just a roundabout form of theft/embezzlement.

Well, ok I guess you can argue that, but can we then get rid of the notion that the US is a meritocracy?

I don't know of any people who say that the US is entirely a meritocracy. I have heard the argument that success in the US is _more_ based on merit than it is in certain other places, or that basing success on merit is good and is something we should strive to do more than we currently do, but "it is possible to get ahead in ways other than merit" does not disprove either of those.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#133

Post by dang » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 3:38 AM UTC

leafboi wrote: post #102

dang wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't post nationalistic flamebait to HN, even if you're personally of that nation. It starts flamewars either way, and we don't want those here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

This wasn't flame bait. It was just an observation. Please realize that it was other people who decided to flame. Just because someone decides to have a bad attitude doesn't make my post flame bait. I made a general observation about corruption and culture, other people decided to respond to it in a bad way. If this type of comment isn't allowed on HN it's a form of censorship. Basically I can't say anything negative…

"It says a lot about the general attitude of Chinese people" in the context of a story about fraud is obvious flamebait. Please follow the site guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

You can call moderation 'censorship'—people mostly just mean by it that they don't like something. I don't see the similarity to the communist party myself, but have been accused of communism so often by now—invariably after doing a bit of standard moderation that somebody disliked—that it has all come to seem more internet-silly than anything anybody actually believes.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#134

Post by stordoff » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 3:42 AM UTC

Balgair wrote: post #78

HeavenFox wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These exams differ from SAT in three major ways. First, they are offered once a year. Didn't do as well as you hope? Try again next year. Second, the material is significantly harder. Take math as an example. The exam questions are a lot closer to AMC/AIME than to SAT. In fact, suppose language is not a problem, many Chinese middle schooler would do pretty well on SAT's math section. Also you are not allowed any calc…

India has similar systems as well. One 'neat' tweak that the Indians take is the publication of the scores. You find out how you did because your name and score are printed in the newspaper, along with everyone else's. So all the gossipy aunties and your folk's friends know your score and you know the scores of everyone else in school. The social pressure to do well is insane . Your score reflects on your family, not…

Vaguely reminds me of the Cambridge (UK) system. Your scores can be checked online, and you can now request they not be published, but the way everyone in my social group found out their results was to make the twenty minute walk to the University admin buildings and look at the printed list posted outside.

It got the "What did you get?" conversations out of the way pretty quickly!

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#135

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 3:43 AM UTC

nelsondev wrote: post #114

zozin wrote: post #37

This is enraging. Identity theft in the United States can be a headache, sure, but in most cases the financial institutions are the ones taking the brunt of the damage, and even that is probably covered by some sort of insurance scheme. This woman had her entire life stripped away from her, not to mention making her doubt her own abilities by implying she “failed” the exam. How do these people live with themselves, e…

Why did you feel the need to say “western sense of morality” rather than just “sense of morality”? The article describes national outrage at this story of injustice, your implication is that a larger “eastern” sense of morality has allowed this to happen, rather than the corrupt individuals named.

[deleted]

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#136

Post by fiblye » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 4:11 AM UTC

megablast wrote: post #109

So, how well did the imposter do at her job? Maybe these exams are not a great measure at all? And how could you possibly repay the poor woman and her family for this?

>So, how well did the imposter do at her job?

You're unlikely to find any accurate measure of that, since she likely has people propping her up well into her adult life.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#137

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 4:27 AM UTC

east2west wrote: post #126

thewarrior wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China as a civilization takes the notion of a merit based on examinations very seriously. They pioneered this system hundreds of years before anywhere else in the world. Cheating may exist but in terms of valuing meritocracy China has it as deeply ingrained as the west.

On paper, yes, China takes official examination rather seriously. In realty, a saying in China goes: as long as there are exams, there are cheaters. An ancient Chinese source estimates that 20% to 30% participants of imperial exams are imposters. Endless examples of high ranking officials pave way for their descendants to succeed as top performers. A renown prime minister invited the chief examiner to his library, wh…

[deleted]

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#138

Post by unishark » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 4:29 AM UTC

quadrifoliate wrote: post #28

topspin wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has evolved a similar rigging for our privileged. We supply various obscure sports accolades that can be purchased for the children of wealthy families to obtain admission to our leading universities. Unfortunately our schemes have also been exposed and a number of people are being prosecuted. So for the moment one must resort to investing in rather costly facility construction or similar expansion projects wh…

It's even simpler than that, the US has a codified system of nepotism in place called legacy admissions, which has been in place for several decades [1]. > In a deposition, Rakesh Khurana, dean of the college, said a legacy preference can foster another kind of diversity: placing people with deep Harvard experience alongside those without it. They refer to nepotism as "deep Harvard experience", that's the only differ…

Technically nepotism means giving favors to your own family, not granting membership to your exclusive school to people of the same family. Your real issue is that this private school is still seen as exclusive despite doing this, and that the legacy admits gain unearned reputation due to their admission. But this is not Harvard's doing, they do not control what others think of their students. This is the rest of society being ignorant.

A better example of nepotism in college admissions has occurred in the past where Governors or other politicians had the ability to give scholarships at major universities in their state, and they customarily gave these to their own children or those of friends. For that matter many school overtly give benefits to their faculty and staff such as free tuition for immediate family members. Perhaps even an easier chance at admission for some.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#139

Post by unishark » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 4:38 AM UTC

elliekelly wrote: post #11

amluto wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure that a fraud committed against the universities that the universities did not know about counts as a rigged system. Or are you talking about something else?

While I’m not so sure all of the universities were as blissfully ignorant as they claim, what does it matter? The system was still rigged in favor of wealthier applicants with or without the schools’ knowledge and awareness of the scheme.

If it was corruption because employees lied, violated their employment contracts, etc. in return for bribes, then the system is not "rigged". Important distinction, because in one case the system actually is striving to be better, even if humans break rules now and then.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#140

Post by WrtCdEvrydy » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 4:43 AM UTC

optimiz3 wrote: post #64

dghughes wrote: post #61

Sometimes it's no better here in the west. I know of a situation where a Chinese student fabricated every source for a paper. Completely made up everything. The professor saw right through it immediately and failed her. But the university big wigs told the professor to give the student a passing grade. The student graduated university.

IMO this whistle needs to be blown because as who knows how many dangerous engineers, doctors, or whatever other safety critical professions are being graduated.

47%.