U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#741

Post by TheSpiceIsLife » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 2:26 AM UTC

genericone wrote: post #691

beenBoutIT wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way to stop our neverending war on drugs is a Constitutional amendment that guarantees every American the right to consume anything they want for any reason. In the next several decades there will be un unprecedented number of elderly Americans living below the poverty line with no pension and medical issues they can't afford to fix - euthanasia will become something of a nuclear option that they'll want ava…

Within reason right? I'm hoping that 'the right to consume anything they want for any reason' wouldn't include those things that cause sudden violent behavior and inability to feel fear and pain. I forget which particular drug does this, but a search brought me to meth and I found this article which says people feel 'invincible' and 'paranoid' and can't be stopped with non-lethal means. https://www.cpr.org/2020/02/05…

As a long time on-and-off meth addict and dealer, I'll tell you one thing:

Helluva drug!

Not convinced I'd want society to have unrestricted access to that one.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#742

Post by rayiner » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 2:27 AM UTC

modmans2nd wrote: post #697

protomyth wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gorsuch is a joy to read because he mixes in history with some interesting side comments.

Originalism is degenerate legal philosophy. Textualism is all that is valid. We will look back at some of those ridiculous uncited rulings that speak about “how the writers felt given the time” as foolishness.

History is relevant to both originalism and textualism in different ways. Originalists look to what the writers intended the words to mean. (This is how we interpret contracts in Anglo legal systems.) Textualists disregard what the writers intended, but do care about what the words meant at the time they were written.

This often leads to the same result, but can sometimes produce divergent results. The drafters of the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment, for example, probably didn't intend to create a framework for striking down laws that treat women differently than men. Ginsberg's brilliance as an attorney was to make essentially textualist arguments that convinced courts that--regardless of what the drafters meant to say, the words they actually used plainly apply to discrimination between the genders is it did to discrimination between races.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#743

Post by kwistzhaderach » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 2:27 AM UTC

sakopov wrote: post #619

pgcj_poster wrote: post #139

This is a good start. Next they should return Indiana and Hawaii.

Why not just dismantle the whole country?

Might as well dismantle all countries since somewhere along the history there was bloodshed or oppression.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#744

Post by jeffdavis » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 2:27 AM UTC

koheripbal wrote: post #457

zetazzed wrote: post #301

From the actual opinion: "Oklahoma replies that its situation is different because the affected population here is large and many of its residents will be surprised to find out they have been living in Indian country this whole time. But we imagine some members of the 1832 Creek Tribe would be just as surprised to find them there." Damn, nice shade, Gorsuch! https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/19pdf/18-9526_9okb.pd…

The entire city of Tulsa is there - literally millions of non-native Americans live in this area. Congress will have no choice but to make a law breaking the promise and repatriating the land out of Native American hands.

What are the consequences to people in Tulsa who aren't tribe members? Landowners who aren't tribe members? Can the tribe expel them and confiscate the land?

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#745

Post by shard » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 2:30 AM UTC

modmans2nd wrote: post #697

protomyth wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gorsuch is a joy to read because he mixes in history with some interesting side comments.

Originalism is degenerate legal philosophy. Textualism is all that is valid. We will look back at some of those ridiculous uncited rulings that speak about “how the writers felt given the time” as foolishness.

Coming across these terms for the first time, and after reading some material online, it seems these two ideas are mildly compatible? Especially with Justice Scalia being identified as both a originalist and textualist. Would you mind explain the difference?

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#746

Post by basilgohar » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 2:30 AM UTC

wbl wrote: post #708

kelnos wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you on the legal aspects, but the mind-bending bit is that the neighbor's actions -- at the time -- were not legal (because no, it is not legal to build structures on someone else's property without their permission), but because it was left to sit that way for some period of time, the result of those actions -- a de facto redrawing of property lines -- has become the new legal status. Which, honestly, s…

Otherwise you could wake up and discover that a structure you built 30 years ago on land you thought was yours now isn't. The adverse possession law exists to prevent surprises like that.

I can understand this perspective, but that also means someone else's rights have been trampled over, even if long ago. What's needed is something that prevents this from even happening in the first place.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#747

Post by jake_morrison » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 2:34 AM UTC

We have to recognize how much we screwed over the Native Americans. We took away their prime land on the East coast. We gave them some shitty land in Oklahoma that we didn't think we would ever want. We made them walk there in the "Trail of Tears", and lots of them died along the way. Then we decided to screw them out of the land in Oklahoma after all, but didn't go though the process properly because we didn't think it mattered.

It's insulting to hear people talk about them as not having "initiative" or being somehow responsible for being poor. When they resisted being screwed, we sent in the US Army to kill them, then kept them under control.

Reconciling this after all these years is going to be tough, but acknowledging it is a first step. Giving them back the land is disruptive, but giving them a few billion dollars is pretty easy. It would be interesting to see a VC fund focused on Native Americans building businesses. Or some real educational funding in Oklahoma. It would be a lot better than what the Republicans are doing to the state. All they want to is protect the rich and the oil industry.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#748

Post by zentiggr » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 2:35 AM UTC

mxcrossb wrote: post #707

beenBoutIT wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way to stop our neverending war on drugs is a Constitutional amendment that guarantees every American the right to consume anything they want for any reason. In the next several decades there will be un unprecedented number of elderly Americans living below the poverty line with no pension and medical issues they can't afford to fix - euthanasia will become something of a nuclear option that they'll want ava…

We’ve really reached quite the low point if mind altering substances and suicide are considered the way to improve things...

Would you rather be on life support, incoherent, for years, because of the lack of a right to choose... Or be able to choose what quality of life below which you prefer to pass on and not endure constant indignity?

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#749

Post by nkozyra » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 2:35 AM UTC

jeffdavis wrote: post #722

beenBoutIT wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way to stop our neverending war on drugs is a Constitutional amendment that guarantees every American the right to consume anything they want for any reason. In the next several decades there will be un unprecedented number of elderly Americans living below the poverty line with no pension and medical issues they can't afford to fix - euthanasia will become something of a nuclear option that they'll want ava…

Good idea. How about: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." That would keep the pesky federal government out of our personal affairs.

Ultimately the flaw with this clause is the flexibility and amenability of the Constitution.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#750

Post by 0xB31B1B » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 2:36 AM UTC

gruez wrote: post #689

refurb wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Up in Canada some of the reservations do 99-years leases with developers. They retain ownership, but can actually get something for it.

What happens after 99 years? Are they expected/obligated to renew for a reasonable fee? What's preventing them from refusing to renew the leases after 99 years, and keeping the property (and whatever improvements on top) for themselves? It might not be an issue for the first or second generation of owners, but you'd expect the uncertainly to hurt the resale value of the property as the 99 years approaches.

you'd be surprised how common this agreement is. A lot of the skyscrapers in manhattan are/were built with this arrangement, where one party owns the land, and leases it to the developer who owns builds and maintains the building. Very interesting issues came up in some condos where the owners decided to spike the ground rent when the term was up. Also, as I understand it, pretty much all of the land in China is managed like this, as well as Singapore.

If you think about it, there isn't much of a difference between a 99 year lease and a 1-3% property tax.