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U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#231

Post by gowld »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #188
umvi wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Native Americans had wars and conquered each other for millennia before white man came. It wasn't some unified utopia in the Americas like Pocahontas leads you to believe. It was a huge cycle of tribalism, conquering each other, and bloodshed. So... because they were conquering each other first, a technologically superior entity isn't allowed to conquer them?

There was some parity in their conflicts, they had relative stability for thousands of years. The coming of Europeans was definitely a major disruption, to the amount of maybe 100M dead in a few years. Of course back then Might made Right. Aren't we able to see a little further than that any more?

Might makes Right gave way to White makes Right.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#232

Post by bhupy »

intopieces wrote: post #208
nostromo wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If congress doesn't change something, then that means they have determined no change is necessary. That isn't an invitation for the executive branch (or judiciary) to overreach. In theory congress could go years without passing a single law, and that would be fine. It would signal that the current laws are sufficient. (As an aside, congress has ceded much of it's lawmaking authority to federal agencies anyway -- so e…

> If congress doesn't change something, then that means they have determined no change is necessary. This not accurate. Congress failing to act due to deadlock does not indicate that either party agrees that no change ought to be made, only that congress couldn’t come to an agreement about how it should be made. To say otherwise is akin to saying that, because you and your husband can’t agree on where to eat for dinn…

> This not accurate. Congress failing to act due to deadlock does not indicate that either party agrees that no change ought to be made, only that congress couldn’t come to an agreement about how it should be made.

That is actually literally what it means. The way the Union is set up, there is a certain amount of consensus necessary to pass legislation over 50 States across 300+ million people.

If there is a deadlock, then it's the system telling you that the consensus isn't met. In a Federal system, this means that the next best place to (try to) pass the law is at the State level, where you may have less of a deadlock.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#234

Post by ConcernedCoder »

fermienrico wrote: post #16

Can someone explain why America has reservations? From what I know, Native Indians had this land almost 2+ centuries ago. Why have a special, looks like an autonomous, region and special treatment to people that are a few generations down from when this happened? How far back into the history should we go?

Think of it like this:

You own quite a bit of fenced-land and have built some dwellings on it, a main home, a couple outbuildings, a barn, etc... you and your family farm it, raise livestock, hunt, fish, etc... and live quite well off the land without ever needing to leave or venture beyond the fence.

One day you see some strangers outside your fence, looking quite haggard, and ill setting up a camp using nothing but the meager supplies left in their vehicles, and what looks to be parts of the vehicles themselves...

Feeling compassion you attempt to help them, you open your gate and land to them, your home even, providing food, additional shelter, and even teaching them some basic things about your land and how to harvest, hunt, fish and generally live off it...

Fast forward a couple centuries, and now your "guests" have double-crossed you... taken all your land by force, persecuted your family while committing countless crimes including rapes, murders, and basically genocide on a continental scale.

In an act of "graciousness" during one of countless "treaties" you've been forced into accepting under duress - so that your entire family wasn't completely wiped from the face of the earth... you were "allowed" some small areas of undesireable land by your new masters where you be confined and kept out of the way without constantly needing to be harrased and supervised into submission... that was until those same people found out there was oil and other commodities buried underneath your newly constucted hovels... at which point they just pushed you into smaller and smaller areas, and took what they wanted from you and yours at-will anyway... I mean who could you complain to? their bought-and-paid for system of goverment and courts? the same that were used to persecute your family and steal your lands and heritage?

Now apparently some judges have decided to interpret the law as written, instead of posing for pictures in black gowns with pretty little wooden hammers...

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#235

Post by jcranmer »

tyre wrote: post #94
blondie9x wrote: post #13

Honestly after all the Native Americans went through, give them the whole state at least. People in the United States speak and reflect often about the atrocities of slavery. We need to equally reflect on and remember the atrocities against Native Americans.

This is what Oklahoma was initially meant to be. There were even talks of having two Native American states in the united states, the other being Sequoia I think. Then the US renegged on those promises, land was given to railroad companies, and flooded colonists. In many ways we're seeing the same thing with Tibet and China. It's horrific.

Oklahoma was originally all Indian territory, and reserved for future allotment of reservations. The western half of Oklahoma was (mostly) never assigned, and instead opened up to white settlers in a variety of land rushes, relegating Indian territory to the land already allotted to reservations in the eastern half.

That rump Indian territory applied to be a state as the Sequoyah, but it was turned down, so it was merged with Oklahoma territory to become the State of Oklahoma.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#236

Post by minerjoe »

umvi wrote: post #114
thex10 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not everyone assimilate? Yes, exactly, why not the USians assimilate into the many Native nations they occupy? They've had literal centuries...

Native Americans had wars and conquered each other for millennia before white man came. It wasn't some unified utopia in the Americas like Pocahontas leads you to believe. It was a huge cycle of tribalism, conquering each other, and bloodshed. So... because they were conquering each other first, a technologically superior entity isn't allowed to conquer them?

Eh, better learn you some history, and not just the "history" written by the conquerors.

Your argument is the standard, and ignorant, response. "They were violent TOO!".

The nature of Native American "War" was generally of a completely different nature than the white man take.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#237

Post by luckylion »

Mangalor wrote: post #196
abeppu wrote: post #57

> The ruling voided McGirt’s sentence of 1,000 years in prison but he could face a new trial in federal court rather than state court. Not changed by this ruling, but it strikes me as really odd that you can sentence someone to prison for that long, or that you would bother. Why not just say life in prison? If your state is 103 years old, saying anything about the next 1000 years seems ... lacking in credibility.

All these legalistic reponses, and yet none really touches the sheer absurdity of sentencing someone to 1,000 years. Doesn't the lifespan of a human being figure in at any point? Talking this way is dehumanizing.

Yes, it's called a life sentence. Nobody is expected to live a thousand years, and they're not going to keep them in prison after they die.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#238

Post by ISL »

war1025 wrote: post #156
calvinmorrison wrote: post #128

"We reject that thinking. If Congress wishes to withdraw its promises, it must say so." As with so many controversial court rulings like the ACA mandate case, our courts keep getting put into the decision because of the massive failure that congress is. Congress should either fulfill the promise or not, or whatever. instead the judicial bodies end up making legal judgements with big ramifcations that largely should b…

> because of the massive failure that congress is This is a conclusion I'm coming to more and more. It's easy to blame Presidential overreach or Supreme Court overreach, but the Congress seems to be steadily abdicating responsibility while still managing to get very little of substance accomplished. They are supposed to be the most powerful branch of government, but instead they have deadlocked themselves into useles…

While in effect it is abdicating, in reality, Congress is spinlocked by indecision.

There are deep divides between the branches of the electorate that have brought the representatives to office, as the United States faces a number of divisive issues. Those divides, and a preference for combat over compromise, leave us deadlocked. The center is there for the first party that chooses to leave its entrenchement.

When Congress reaches approximate agreement on an issue, particularly an emerging one, it can move fast. See the passage of the PATRIOT Act or the recent move to spend more than $1,000,000,000,000 on COVID-19 economic relief.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#239

Post by krapp »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #213
hinkley wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> our courts keep getting put into the decision because of the massive failure that congress is We need more Civics classes for students. Branches of the Federal Government being put into the decision because of a massive failure of another is exactly why we have 3 branches. It's rock-paper-scissors. Checks and balances. Which is why, for instance, people squawk so much when the executive branch imagines itself new p…

I disagree with your assertion that this "is exactly why we have 3 branches". The normal idea behind "checks-and-balances" is that if one branch exceeds their authority, the other two branches can serve as a check on abuse of that authority. The argument being made by GP, though, is pretty much the opposite: Congress isn't overstepping their authority, they're abdicating it. It's basically like they want to be 'check…

I feel like that's implied by the "balance" part of "checks and balances."

It's also simply the fact that politics abhors a power vacuum. If one branch of government abdicates its power, that slack has to be taken up elsewhere.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#240

Post by phnofive »

hinkley wrote: post #191
calvinmorrison wrote: post #128

"We reject that thinking. If Congress wishes to withdraw its promises, it must say so." As with so many controversial court rulings like the ACA mandate case, our courts keep getting put into the decision because of the massive failure that congress is. Congress should either fulfill the promise or not, or whatever. instead the judicial bodies end up making legal judgements with big ramifcations that largely should b…

> our courts keep getting put into the decision because of the massive failure that congress is We need more Civics classes for students. Branches of the Federal Government being put into the decision because of a massive failure of another is exactly why we have 3 branches. It's rock-paper-scissors. Checks and balances. Which is why, for instance, people squawk so much when the executive branch imagines itself new p…

Each branch needs to be moving for this to work - even the gutters on a bowling lane require someone to start the ball rolling.
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