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How one guy turned his C&C skills into millions with online poker

nytimes.com

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Re: How one guy turned his C&C skills into millions with online poker

#31

Post by danenania »

TY wrote: post #26
danenania wrote: post #5

If he a.) plays at stakes where he can lose over a million in a couple days and b.) bases his decision to play someone (especially another pro) on emotion and recent short term variance, it's pretty much guaranteed he will end up broke eventually unless he actually has many many millions (like possibly in the hundreds if we're talking about enough to cover the swings of heads up PLO games at those stakes with Gus Han…

Can't agree more. I worked for an online gambling company for several years in the analytics area. I saw young players rise meteorically, win millions (not exaggerating) and eventually go broke. Almost everyone is human. Once losses start to mount, it's hard to play with according to the program and stay emotionally detached while your world is crumbling with every lost pot. Never underestimate the cheaters. Most onl…

Yeah, I was a pro for about 5 years before I got good enough at programming to do that instead. For the first couple years I was awed by the easy money (it was waaaay easy back then). Before really learning, I stupidly blew about $1200 doing all the stupid gambler things (was in college so that was like... all my money).

Then I got serious about learning , put in another $200, and didn't deposit ever again. Worked that up to around $20kish, kept that as a bankroll, and played in the 5/10-30/60 range, whatever games were good. I mainly focused on limit hold 'em, shorthanded and later heads-up.

I was consistently making in the 150-200 an hour range, but I'm not very money driven and so didn't play that much. Maybe 20-30hrs per week around 6-8 months of the year. So it was easy money and gave me lots of free time, which was great, and the mechanics of the game are truly fascinating and I got very absorbed early on, but you're completely right about how boring and unrewarding it is ultimately.

After a few years I felt like a hamster on a wheel. It became a drag to play so I avoided it and tried to reduce playing to the minimum necessary--which ended up putting strain on the bankroll during bad patches. You're right: the swings are very hard to stomach day in and day out. I didn't save or manage my money at all--spent it mostly on food and travel, which I don't regret. Still, I determined that I absolutely had to do something creative and contributory rather than repetitive and predatory, went the clueless 20 year old failed start up attempt route, learned how to program along the way, and now I'm much happier with life, and though I still make a lot less per hour than those days, it seems conceivable that in a few years I could eclipse it doing something I dig.

Re: How one guy turned his C&C skills into millions with online poker

#32

Post by rboyd »

brianbreslin wrote: post #30

Semi related question: how do these guys keep their millions, from a banking and tax standpoint. Is it no longer illegal to gamble online in the us? If I was him I'd be socking away a % monthly for saving and rainy day funds

Good question. I think it's pretty hysterical by the way, how it seems like half of the online gambling articles published in the mainstream media are about the shady underbelly of an illegal industry and the other half sort of glamorize the top winners.

To answer your question though, online poker is in a kind of legal limbo. The Unlawful Internet Gambling and Enforcement Act (UIGEA) was tacked onto the SAFE Port Act of 2006 in a midnight rush job, making it illegal for banks to facilitate transactions related to online gambling. It didn't specifically make the act of playing illegal beyond what has been on the books since the Interstate Wire Act of 1961. In theory, poker's ace up the sleeve is that it's a skill game and can't fall under the same restrictions that regulate other games of chance.

At a state level, there are states that have specifically made online poker illegal, Washington (where it's a felony) and Kentucky are two, if memory serves but I think there might be one or two more by now. Then you see other states NJ/CA/NV moving to legalize and regulate intrastate network gaming.

Probably most of the players winning smaller amounts just don't bother to declare, and the bigger players are filing Form W2-G the same as they would for offline winnings.

Re: How one guy turned his C&C skills into millions with online poker

#34

Post by zecho »

arbitrarywords wrote: post #23
endlessvoid94 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 24. I'm certainly not a pro, either. I'm not arguing these skills are the best skills anyone could have, I'm trying to convey that the intuition and instinct built up over time playing with people has some value, and that value isn't insignificant. I failed to convey this, though. I totally agree with your points about disciple and emotional control. I just can't help but feel the skills I've gotten from playing…

It also depends what you need to learn. Personally, as someone who avoids conflict and always second guesses my decisions, I found poker helps a little to train me out of these traits.

Yeah, there's not a ton I can say I've applied from my years gambling to other parts of my life, but this was the biggest takeaway: Shit happens; Trust the math; Don't let a big win get to your head, either.

If anything, I've learned not to get emotionally attached to day-to-day swings and try to rationally focus on the bigger picture.

Re: How one guy turned his C&C skills into millions with online poker

#35

Post by svrocks »

Wolf_Larsen wrote: post #10
anagnorisis wrote: post #2

The prob with..every..mainstream story on (e)poker is the unflinching marketing élan of the writers, and necessity to give a (stil truly) sub-terranean slice of life immediate resonance to the audience. Not too encroach upon anyone's character or existence, let alone the actual people in the article... Poker is an inexorable gambit; both in lifestyle (subjectively define by 'sanity', and career (objectively define bu…

The most important point that you made is that poker brings nothing to the table for a player except money. You learn little that can be monetized away from the table, and spend your time building a bankroll instead of building a business that has value other than the money it brings in. Poker doesn't scale. The goal is to increase your hourly rate. Spend your time coding.

Agree completely, coding >>> poker although it is possible to merge the two by making a bot.

Anyone curious enough should check out http://code.google.com/p/openholdembot/

that eliminates all the nuts and bolts of botting (screen scraping, action-taking, etc.) and leaves you time to figure out strategy. About a year ago I made a bot that 12-tabled at low stakes and made about $10 an hour...and then I realized I could be doing more interesting stuff with my life instead of staring at a screen, making minimum wage to make sure my bot didnt crash and lose my whole roll

Re: How one guy turned his C&C skills into millions with online poker

#36

Post by nmaio »

I used to bet on sports. I've made 13k in 13 days. I've wagered 10k on a single game (numerous times). I've lost 14k in three hours. I've wagered my entire bankroll on a single day of NFL games.

And guess what? It was never about the money. Sure, I always wanted to see the number go up, but I had no intentions of withdrawing any of it. It was about being right. It was about pushing the envelope. And most importantly, it was about trying to figure something out.

I don't care if you make millions or go bust... or go back and forth between the two. As long as you leave your emotions at the door, you'll be fine. And to be honest, I was good at that (and still am). But it's probably not a life you want...

I mean, yeah, it's fun trying to solve something and seeing if you're right or wrong. But you're only doing it for yourself. You and no one else. And if that tickles your fancy, go for it - I have nothing against it. But what if you chose to share your passion for wanting to be right, for wanting to push the envelope, for wanting to figure something out...

In my eyes, it wouldn't necessarily make you a better person, it'd just be hard to call that bet a loss.

Re: How one guy turned his C&C skills into millions with online poker

#37

Post by look_lookatme »

nikcub wrote: post #21
danenania wrote: post #5

If he a.) plays at stakes where he can lose over a million in a couple days and b.) bases his decision to play someone (especially another pro) on emotion and recent short term variance, it's pretty much guaranteed he will end up broke eventually unless he actually has many many millions (like possibly in the hundreds if we're talking about enough to cover the swings of heads up PLO games at those stakes with Gus Han…

I haven't read the article yet, but I do hang in poker circles and play. jungleman is an absolute legend in the online poker world - mostly because he is not the reckless Hansen type. He built most of his roll grinding stakes lower than he was capable of playing because he understood variance, skill etc. It was only more recently that he stepped up to play durrrr et al (early last year, IIRC). Before that, he was fam…

On the second page the article goes into the exact details you mention.

Re: How one guy turned his C&C skills into millions with online poker

#38

Post by andfarm »

ianl wrote: post #29

Its very common for high level rts players to also play poker. During the time of starcraft broodwar before starcraft 2 launched there was not much north american/european interest in the gaming scene. Professional players use to play poker by day to make money and starcraft by night to practice for their next tournament.

You know, that's a really interesting observation. Having lived across the hall from day[9] in college and seen him play both Starcraft and poker, the intense concentration, and frenetic clicking, and split-second analysis involved in both activities are really not all that different. :)

Re: How one guy turned his C&C skills into millions with online poker

#39

Post by elai »

TY wrote: post #26
danenania wrote: post #5

If he a.) plays at stakes where he can lose over a million in a couple days and b.) bases his decision to play someone (especially another pro) on emotion and recent short term variance, it's pretty much guaranteed he will end up broke eventually unless he actually has many many millions (like possibly in the hundreds if we're talking about enough to cover the swings of heads up PLO games at those stakes with Gus Han…

Can't agree more. I worked for an online gambling company for several years in the analytics area. I saw young players rise meteorically, win millions (not exaggerating) and eventually go broke. Almost everyone is human. Once losses start to mount, it's hard to play with according to the program and stay emotionally detached while your world is crumbling with every lost pot. Never underestimate the cheaters. Most onl…

reminds me of day trading.

Re: How one guy turned his C&C skills into millions with online poker

#40

Post by wladimir »

svrocks wrote: post #35
Wolf_Larsen wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most important point that you made is that poker brings nothing to the table for a player except money. You learn little that can be monetized away from the table, and spend your time building a bankroll instead of building a business that has value other than the money it brings in. Poker doesn't scale. The goal is to increase your hourly rate. Spend your time coding.

Agree completely, coding >>> poker although it is possible to merge the two by making a bot. Anyone curious enough should check out http://code.google.com/p/openholdembot/ that eliminates all the nuts and bolts of botting (screen scraping, action-taking, etc.) and leaves you time to figure out strategy. About a year ago I made a bot that 12-tabled at low stakes and made about $10 an hour...and then I realized I could…

Very interesting!

I spent quite some time reading about poker bots / strategies and doing a base implementation, but never actually ran it on a live poker site. Some other project (also with a higher $/hr ratio) caught my interest and I abandoned it.

Still, I'd be very interested in discussing what tactics you used. For example, did your bot play a generic strategy, or adapt it based on the person(s) it was playing against?

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