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How one guy turned his C&C skills into millions with online poker

nytimes.com

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Re: How one guy turned his C&C skills into millions with online poker

#21

Post by nikcub »

danenania wrote: post #5

If he a.) plays at stakes where he can lose over a million in a couple days and b.) bases his decision to play someone (especially another pro) on emotion and recent short term variance, it's pretty much guaranteed he will end up broke eventually unless he actually has many many millions (like possibly in the hundreds if we're talking about enough to cover the swings of heads up PLO games at those stakes with Gus Han…

I haven't read the article yet, but I do hang in poker circles and play. jungleman is an absolute legend in the online poker world - mostly because he is not the reckless Hansen type.

He built most of his roll grinding stakes lower than he was capable of playing because he understood variance, skill etc. It was only more recently that he stepped up to play durrrr et al (early last year, IIRC). Before that, he was famous for declining games with the stars

Sounds like the article didn't do him any justice

Re: How one guy turned his C&C skills into millions with online poker

#22

Post by mellowgold »

anagnorisis wrote: post #3

ps...check out the mathematic models/programs that play out and distill "variance", the "long term", and 'luck' in poker..It's remarkable stuff.

My first Django project was to create a simple variance simulator for poker (http://www.evplusplus.com/poker_tools/variance_simulator/). The amount of luck involved in poker is truly tough to comprehend.

Becoming a successful poker player not only requires you to be quite skilled, but you also need to run well at the beginning of your career.

Re: How one guy turned his C&C skills into millions with online poker

#23

Post by arbitrarywords »

endlessvoid94 wrote: post #19
Wolf_Larsen wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Learning how to read people in-depth is incredibly valuable. You think that playing poker teaches you how to read people past the poker table? In what context? This sounds very delusional to me. In business, if you are doing anything with a lot of money at stake (that is not illicit), then the cards are always face up if you do enough work. > Also learning how to stand your ground and unflinchingly bluff (or delibe…

I'm 24. I'm certainly not a pro, either. I'm not arguing these skills are the best skills anyone could have, I'm trying to convey that the intuition and instinct built up over time playing with people has some value, and that value isn't insignificant. I failed to convey this, though. I totally agree with your points about disciple and emotional control. I just can't help but feel the skills I've gotten from playing…

It also depends what you need to learn. Personally, as someone who avoids conflict and always second guesses my decisions, I found poker helps a little to train me out of these traits.

Re: How one guy turned his C&C skills into millions with online poker

#24

Post by zecho »

I played quite a bit of poker and blackjack to help pay for college; Some of my "not-really-friends" friends dropped out to play professionally.

Playing 6+ simultaneous tables isn't as romantic (it's a boring way to play) or hard (there's software to help you keep track) as this article makes it out to be, when you're essentially asking the same question every hand, doing the same calculation. It gets to be mind numbing. There are few situations in poker that are truly interesting when you've played tens of thousands of hands.

I'd liken the experience less to Command and Conquer and more to mining for gold in World of Warcraft.

And that was the difference between me and the others in my circle that still play full time: Mental stamina.

Seeing the chips as points and not money is really a defense mechanism to keep you playing rationally. Where many good, but not great, online players lose it is in the grind of constantly calculating pot odds.

Re: How one guy turned his C&C skills into millions with online poker

#25

Post by daimyoyo »

I'm going to make a prediction and say that this kid is flat broke in the next 2-5 years.(if it takes that long) The article seems to gloss over the sickening amounts of variance that poker can have. Just like you can run up from nothing to millions in year, you can go from living in the penthouse to sweeping the lobby over a few bad sessions. Especially at the stakes he's playing at. Ask Mike Matusow about being a pro who's borrowing money to pay bills.

Re: How one guy turned his C&C skills into millions with online poker

#26

Post by TY »

danenania wrote: post #5

If he a.) plays at stakes where he can lose over a million in a couple days and b.) bases his decision to play someone (especially another pro) on emotion and recent short term variance, it's pretty much guaranteed he will end up broke eventually unless he actually has many many millions (like possibly in the hundreds if we're talking about enough to cover the swings of heads up PLO games at those stakes with Gus Han…

Can't agree more.

I worked for an online gambling company for several years in the analytics area. I saw young players rise meteorically, win millions (not exaggerating) and eventually go broke.

Almost everyone is human. Once losses start to mount, it's hard to play with according to the program and stay emotionally detached while your world is crumbling with every lost pot.

Never underestimate the cheaters. Most online poker players don't understand how rampant collusion is. Dumb colluders are easy to spot. Smart ones will stay undetected until someone gets greedy. Almost everyone is human. It's hard to maintain discipline.

I myself thought about playing online professionally. After I realistically evaluated my chances and my stats, it became clear that I would make more money on a guaranteed basis by being a consultant than a professional poker player. When you have a family that depends on you, stable income becomes very important.

Online gamblers live a very unfullfilling life: you are staring at several computer screens many hours each day, you don't really create anything and you have wild swings in your income. With exception of few lucky, hard working, disciplined and possibly intelligently colluding players you will not make good money in the long run.

In the short run, impossible is nothing. Play that tourney, enjoy a night in a casino. It's good fun if it's not your job.

Re: How one guy turned his C&C skills into millions with online poker

#27

Post by monkeysjgfi »

Wolf_Larsen wrote: post #15
endlessvoid94 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. way. Playing poker with PEOPLE, at least (not online) has enormous benefits. Learning how to read people in-depth is incredibly valuable. Also learning how to stand your ground and unflinchingly bluff (or deliberatly avoid telegraphing your hand) is also a great skill to have. There's so much more to poker than the money. Unless you're talking only about online poker.

> Learning how to read people in-depth is incredibly valuable. You think that playing poker teaches you how to read people past the poker table? In what context? This sounds very delusional to me. In business, if you are doing anything with a lot of money at stake (that is not illicit), then the cards are always face up if you do enough work. > Also learning how to stand your ground and unflinchingly bluff (or delibe…

No offense, but I'm guessing you're not particularly great at poker. What stakes do you play?

I don't mean it derogatorily, but I don't see how any talented, high-stakes player could believe that the game has fewer meta-lessons than soccer game organization.

Have a great day, low-stakes donkey.

Re: How one guy turned his C&C skills into millions with online poker

#28

Post by zecho »

daimyoyo wrote: post #25

I'm going to make a prediction and say that this kid is flat broke in the next 2-5 years.(if it takes that long) The article seems to gloss over the sickening amounts of variance that poker can have. Just like you can run up from nothing to millions in year, you can go from living in the penthouse to sweeping the lobby over a few bad sessions. Especially at the stakes he's playing at. Ask Mike Matusow about being a p…

It comes down to bankroll protection.

With midrange professional players, I don't think you really see those kinds of crazy swings. Once you reach a certain level, you start doing dumb things, like playing head-to-head games at ridiculous stakes against players you're equally matched with.

Which is why poker doesn't scale well. Eventually you're not going to hit a level where you don't have as clear an advantage over your opponents. Your profits will eventually end up capping out. You either need to find a new angle or start gambling like a degenerate to further advance.

Players like Matusow aren't going to scale down their stakes when their bankroll starts to shrink dramatically.

Re: How one guy turned his C&C skills into millions with online poker

#29

Post by ianl »

Its very common for high level rts players to also play poker. During the time of starcraft broodwar before starcraft 2 launched there was not much north american/european interest in the gaming scene. Professional players use to play poker by day to make money and starcraft by night to practice for their next tournament.
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