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Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

nytimes.com

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Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#301

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

rumanator wrote: post #280
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an argument you have to accept on some level, unless you propose to make more radical changes to society. How many thousands of people could we have saved from car accidents in 2019 by banning nonessential driving?

> unless you propose to make more radical changes to society. How many thousands of people could we have saved from car accidents in 2019 by banning nonessential driving? I'm pretty sure that mandating driver's license to be able to drive, and passing laws and regulations to enforce the use and adoption of safety systems such as seat belts, air bags, and helmets, not to mention criminalizing wreck less driving, is a…

The official stay at home order where I live forbids me from visting my family. I'm ignoring that part of it - everyone I know is, at this point - but it's a much more severe imposition than the phrase "practice social distancing" makes it sound.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#302

Post by triceratops »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #214
triceratops wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the same as "no strategy". Without coordination of the lockdowns, travel monitoring, national testing and contact tracing, you're just going to have shifting hotspots of infection. This also leaves behind an embittered population whose lockdown sacrifices were for nothing.

Coordination of lockdowns makes no sense past a county or small state. Do you believe NYC and rural Nebraska should be coordinating schedules when they have vastly different situations over time?

Way to argue against a strawman - please explain where "coordinate" means "everyone all at once with no regard for local conditions".

Neighboring states and counties should be coordinating schedules, travel restrictions, and stay-at-home requirements. Here in the Bay Area alone San Mateo, Santa Clara and San Francisco counties had conflicting requirements for how far away from home you could be and for what reasons.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#303

Post by triceratops »

bhupy wrote: post #231
mixmastamyk wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coordination of lockdowns makes no sense past a county or small state. Do you believe NYC and rural Nebraska should be coordinating schedules when they have vastly different situations over time?

Not to mention that the US Federal government simply does not have the power to issue nationwide lockdowns.

The federal government doesn't need to order anyone to do anything. Fighting a pandemic is in everyone's best interests. It just needs to ensure there's a consistent strategy that everyone is executing.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#305

Post by dpau »

glofish wrote: post #194
emiliobumachar wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that years of life lost by dying sooner are actually a complete loss, while a year in quarantine is still partially lived. It varies a lot from person to person. If it was all about yourself, what do you think would be a reasonable exchange rate?

what if you die next year (of a different cause) and the quarantine robbed you from your last year, would you make the same trade?

what of those who don't quarantine, get covid, and pass the virus on to their elderly relatives? would you make the same trade?

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#306

Post by drummer »

detaro wrote: post #134
drummer wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not forget Germany: "A report on the coronavirus by the German Ministry of the Interior was leaked on May 9th 2020 by officer Stephan Kohn to the magazine Tichys Einblick, one of the most popular alternative media in Germany. The report, on which a dozen or so doctors and professors from various universities in Germany have worked, states that “the state has failed in the coronavirus crisis in an almost grotesq…

Just to be clear: that is a "report on the coronavirus by the German Ministry of the Interior" in the sense that the "leaker" works there, wrote that report on his own (he wasn't part of the groups working on COVID specifically) based on at least cherry-picked data and then sent out on the official letterhead without permission.

From the provided link here is a list of some of the people who worked on the report and signed the press release:

Prof. Dr. Sucharit Bhakdi, University Professor for Medical Microbiology (retired) University of Mainz

Dr. med. Gunter Frank, general practitioner, member of the permanent guidelines commission of the German Society for Family Medicine and General Medicine (DEGAM), Heidelberg

Prof. Dr. phil. Dr. rer. pol. Dipl.-Soz. Dr. Gunnar Heinsohn, Emeritus of Social Sciences at the University of Bremen

Prof. Dr. Stefan W. Hockertz, tpi consult GmbH, former director of the Institute for Experimental Pharmacology and Toxicology at the University Hospital Eppendorf

Prof. Dr. Dr. rer. nat. (USA) Andreas S. Lübbe, Medical Director of the MZG-Westphalia, Head Physician Cecilien-Klinik

Prof. Dr. Karina Reiß, Department of Dermatology and Allergology University Hospital Schleswig-Holstein

Prof. Dr. Peter Schirmacher, Professor of Pathology, Heidelberg, Member of the National Academy of Sciences Leopoldina

Prof. Dr. Andreas Sönnichsen, Deputy Curriculum Director of the Medical University of Vienna, Department of General and Family Medicine.

Dr. med. Til Uebel, General Practitioner, Specialist in General Medicine, Diabetology, Emergency Medicine, Teaching at the Institute of General Medicine at the University of Würzburg, academic teaching practice at the University of Heidelberg

Prof. Dr. Dr. phil. Harald Walach, Prof. Med. University of Poznan, Dept. of Paediatric Gastroenterology, Visiting Professor University of Witten-Herdecke, Dept. of Psychology 4

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#307

Post by jfoster »

The idea of prioritising the economy is a falsehood. You can't have a strong economy with a virus like covid ripping its way through the population. Some people might go on as normal, but a huge portion of the population will be afraid of going outside.

The only feasible path to economic recovery is:

1. Keep the borders closed. Mandatory & monitored quarantine for anyone entering.

2. Lock down, test & contact-trace until the virus is basically eradicated. Mandating mask use outside of abodes or any other measure will help speed this along, too.

3. Open up, but keep borders closed except to places applying a similar approach.

The swifter the action, the easier it all is.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#308

Post by vmception »

TheGrim-888 wrote: post #270
vmception wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been willing to be frustrated with moving the goal post, but there is new information that mayors and governors know that the general public doesn't have a good way to know: The low mortality rate and managed ICU capacity isn't the whole story. there is a large population of recovering and recovered that have serious complications, that seem random and are unproductive to our society. Blood clots resulting in…

If the complications are a serious problem, as you claim, then I have a few follow up questions: 1) You're making some significant claims, and should therefore have significant data and evidence to back up your claims. Over 3 million people in the US have tested positive for covid. What percentage of them needed to have a limb amputated? That should be easily verifiable. What percentage of them had a blood clot and s…

Those are great questions, the crux of it is that having two flus going around simultaneously is just as bad as it being no different than complications with the flu. And then the possibility that its worse should be just enough to say "look over there and corroborate the concerns".

> Over 3 million people in the US have tested positive for covid. What percentage of them needed to have a limb amputated? That should be easily verifiable.

Okay, how would I do that?

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#309

Post by chipotle_coyote »

austhrow743 wrote: post #187
dwaltrip wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it was implied that we try to reduce deaths as much as is reasonably possible, not at the cost of everything else.

What's reasonable is exactly what's up for debate though and they didn't say "civilisation is 5000 fun utils to 1 QALY saved ratio but doing nothing about corona virus actually costs you 3 QALY for every 5000 fun utils so that's disgusting, what they said was >It's not fun, but suggesting that your right to fun should trump others' right to life is, again, uncivilized, immoral and irresponsible.

I really don't understand what you're trying to accomplish here: are you seriously asserting "unless you can assign objectively quantifiable values to 'right to fun' and 'right to life' and prove the latter is larger than the former, your argument is invalid?"

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#310

Post by b112 »

dvdplm wrote: post #184
vondur wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe there was one place in France where the care workers moved into the facilities and then the movement of people and items into it were strictly controlled. I believe no one died from Covid-19 at the facility.

This is exactly what needed to be done, in Sweden and elsewhere. Pay staff triple and have them stay with the old folks and get everything delivered by externals with as little contact as possible. And no new admissions into the care homes.

Will you force them with a gun? To forgo all friends, family, comforts of home, and be literally trapped at work for months?

Money doesn't just buy people.

You'd essentially be drafting them.

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