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Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

nytimes.com

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Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#241

Post by grawprog »

leto_ii wrote: post #166
jlmorton wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Containing and minimizing the effects of a pandemic is just one aspect of what we might call a civilized attitude towards human life. Conversely, not doing so is uncivilized and I might add immoral and irresponsible. The reality is that everyone is prepared to allow others to die for their own convenience. I intentionally phrased that harshly, but it is indisputably true. In the US, 70,000 people died from the infl…

All preventable deaths should be prevented - this is the gold standard. In reality, of course, things don't work out that way. The analogy with a flu season is deeply misleading. The coronavirus has, in half a year, killed more people than the worst flu seasons, with extraordinary measures in place all over the world. It's completely reasonable to assume that without lockdowns we would have had millions of deaths alr…

>All preventable deaths should be prevented

What's a preventable death? Everybody dies eventually, there's no such thing as a preventable death. There's delaying death, but everyone dies. Period.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#242

Post by screye »

bjourne wrote: post #68

You have to look at the excess deaths figures. That is, how many usually dies from January to June in a normal year and compare that to how many extra that died in 2020. For Sweden the excess deaths almost exactly matches the number of Covid deaths, give or take 10%. That is not the case for many other countries. For example, the UK had almost twice the number of excess deaths as Covid deaths in a few weeks in April.…

Additionally, we must also look at what percent of the population is at high risk.

India is a way younger country than Sweden. This means, with the exact same deathrate-by-age India would see far fewer deaths-per-capita with all else being constant.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#243

Post by VectorLock »

gridlockd wrote: post #212
VectorLock wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a fundamental level, yes. By degree of magnitude not even in the same galaxy. If you take a 200 million mile road trip you might contribute to one death, vs. going to a party and risk contracting and spreading a pandemic that has has already claimed hundreds of thousands of lives.

Remember, the game plan that virologists came up with for COVID acknowledged that most people will get it eventually. The point of the lockdowns was not to eliminate spread, which is impossible, but to not overwhelm the system.

"Everyone gets COVID" is not an unavoidable eventuality. The spread of the virus can be attenuated enough so that it a decreasing amount of people, and eventually a vaccine can be developed.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#244

Post by EdwardDiego »

oxymoran wrote: post #53

I find this article a little disingenuous and here is why: Sweden-5420 deaths out of a population of 10 million while no lock down. Michigan-6005 deaths out of a population of 10 million and we have been locked down since mid March. To be clear, I was in favor of the lockdown at first and I still am in favor of keeping things like bars and casinos closed but it’s become clear that the virus doesn’t have much affect o…

Your comparison is valid if, and only if, all other social metrics are equal between Sweden and Michigan.

For example, do Michiganers have the same level of access to quality medical care as Swedes?

What are the smoking rates in Sweden compared to Michigan?

What about the housing quality?

Etc. etc. etc.

In other words, there's a lot of variables at play here.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#245

Post by bhupy »

detaro wrote: post #233
bhupy wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's not the system in the US - or hasn't been. The Federal government maintains what, until recently, was the world's premier infectious disease-fighting organization - the CDC. The implication was that pandemic response occurs through this organization. In the past, this is exactly what happened. While you're right that the Federal government has the CDC, every single US States has its own infectious disease/he…

Random anecdote about the difference: I (in Germany) can't really remember seeing anything about what ECDC said or thinks in the past months in the media, only about country-level (and lower) authorities. Whereas US-CDC seems quoted quite a lot in US media.

Oh for sure, the CDC is certainly more talked about by the media, but the power and structure of the agencies is fairly similar.

It's only a matter of time until EU's agencies impose supremacy on its Member States. The EU supreme court is already starting to penalize member States for violating policies[1].

[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ecb-policy-germany-ecj-id...

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#246

Post by username90 »

akmarinov wrote: post #76
Svip wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden did not close its borders, although it followed EU guidelines to close its borders beyond the EU. The US closed its borders to certain areas of the world, which is what this is comparable to.

Well all other countries in the EU closed their borders to them, so it’s effectively the same thing.

No they didn't. Danish, Finnish and Norwegian tourists are still coming to Sweden. It is just that Swedes can't go to them.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#247

Post by zasz »

jlmorton wrote: post #144
leto_ii wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In an average year, 13/1000 Swedes die anyway. Yes, people die. That's true of all countries and all times. What we might call civilized societies have however strived to reduce those numbers as much as possible. This was done by trying to avoid violence, improving lifestyles and developing better medical techniques in order to prevent or repair diseases and injuries. Containing and minimizing the effects of a pand…

> Containing and minimizing the effects of a pandemic is just one aspect of what we might call a civilized attitude towards human life. Conversely, not doing so is uncivilized and I might add immoral and irresponsible. The reality is that everyone is prepared to allow others to die for their own convenience. I intentionally phrased that harshly, but it is indisputably true. In the US, 70,000 people died from the infl…

Yes, fortunately most people agree that stopping covid lies on the unacceptable side of the line.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#248

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

revnode wrote: post #191
leto_ii wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many ways of mitigating the harmful effects of the lock down. State aid targeted directly towards individuals (and not corporations) is a good idea, I think. The same goes for a freeze on mortgage payments, rents, evictions etc. These are all measures that a modern state can take to prevent people from suffering economically.

> There are many ways of mitigating the harmful effects of the lock down. State aid targeted directly towards individuals (and not corporations) is a good idea, I think. The same goes for a freeze on mortgage payments, rents, evictions etc. I think it's a bad idea to have people with little understanding of economics, but a high sense of moral superiority, fix the problems they create through their incompetence. Poli…

These are all problems caused by the economic system.

If an economic system can't cope with a relatively minor external stressor - and Covid is not nearly as dangerous or destructive as some stressors - then the problem is with the economic system.

Actions do indeed have consequences - and trying to use the wrong tool for the job because you can't imagine a better tool is possible is not a wise action.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#249

Post by EdwardDiego »

martindbp wrote: post #12
throw-away_42 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden's total per-capita death rate is 50% higher than the Netherlands, 500% higher than Germany and Denmark, and 900+% higher than Finland, Norway, and Poland. All those deaths have not made you safer--your daily per-capita death rate is still several times that of those countries. Source: https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data

The current death rate, 10-15 people a day, is insignificant compared to other causes of death. It is not reasonable to talk about percentage differences when we're talking 15 vs 3 deaths a day.

I like how you call 10 - 15 people dying insignificant without considering how significant those deaths are to their loved ones.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#250

Post by sjg007 »

mhandley wrote: post #228
sjg007 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s been no real progress in clinical treatment since March.

Dexamethasone decreases deaths of ventilated cases by a third: https://www.recoverytrial.net/files/recovery_dexamethasone_s...

Prevents 1 death in 8 of ventilated cases and 1 in 25 on oxygen.
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