Searchable PPP Loan Data • Hacker News Board

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#311

Post by Nelson69 » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 11:26 PM UTC

eric_b wrote: post #77

So many complaints here. Based on the comments I think there is some misunderstanding about the nuts and bolts of this program. These are loans. They are two year low interest loans. They have to be paid back unless some or all is forgiven. Forgiveness requires documentation on employees retained, wage history, and is capped at $20k/employee maximum. And of course a piece of that comes back to the government in terms…

I think this program is generally well intentioned. I directly know organizations that benefited from it and it absolutely helped cushion the blow of initial lock-down. I also think that any time the US federal government is offering out free or low cost money it is imperative that we look closely and carefully, especially when the program was thrown together in a week or two.

"Need" is probably not the way to look at this, anytime there is "free money" there will be incredibly wealthy businesses and organizations with "need." There is a school of thought that you should "always need" free money. I think that's just business. I think the actual distribution is where you look.

It would be completely foolish, ATMO, to believe that every organization, bank, and business were treated equally or fairly in this process. We already know that banks like Cross River handled what appears to be a disproportional amount of the approved "loans," presumably because they are a slick fintech business. When the dust fully settles, I would be shocked if the distribution of the funds or the forgiveness was in any way egalitarian, the country just isn't. I fully expect that it will be another mechanism in which certain classes benefit from the US system and others will have been overlooked. And maybe there will be another excuse, minority owned small businesses may not have been as "well banked" as others or something and your choice of bank will be another differentiator. I've heard a couple stories of orgs that didn't even get applications from their banks until the fund was depleted. There will be some great success stories too, I'll reiterate that I think the program is based in good intentions. I just can't see it being executed fairly though, not when they're actually debating on whether the Bubba Wallace noose was a "hoax" or not and the president chimes in...

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#312

Post by felipellrocha » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 11:29 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #268

dopamean wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the issue is with what the government is calling it?

I believe that's why the parent comment had used quotes. It's not a loan, it's a subsidy. Calling it a loan is misleading, because loans are meant to be paid back, and this isn't.

I believe it's a loan that can be forgiven if you fit into certain criteria. So, it's still a loan. If you fuck it up you have to pay back

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#313

Post by nullc » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 11:41 PM UTC

vmception wrote: post #134

nullc wrote: post #125

There are a remarkable number of sketchy blockchain companies in this list-- many for larger $5 to $10 million dollar ranges. I wonder how many of them were sitting on millions or tens or even hundreds of millions of deceptively obtained ICO funds at the time they obtained these 'loans'. E.g. I see at least one that raised over 100k BTC in ICO funding just couple years ago.

Although ICO purchasers like to imagine they have investments in "not-securities", proper accounting of token sales from the issuer is revenue, and payroll goes to employees. So if they had that revenue and also paid payroll to employees in 2019, they would be eligible. The 2018 ones were screwed though, too far back. They probably exhausted a lot of their runway on marketing and extortionate exchanges. Blockchain co…

> often have good legal help

That hasn't been my experience, instead my experience is that many of these companies went through large numbers of lawyers who told them what they wanted to do would be likely found to be illegal before finding some that would sign off on it.

> "forever money" for an indefinite time period

For the most part this is because they don't deliver anything useful, so they won't get any more (at least not until they spin up a new operation under another name).

Some of the companies I see in that database have principals who are on their third or more failed blockchain/ico and hey have become exceedingly efficient at it.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#314

Post by dboreham » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 11:46 PM UTC

throwaway_USD wrote: post #255

eric_b wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know lots of folks who got PPP loans. I don't know anyone who's getting 100% of their loan forgiven. Mainly because they took 2.5x monthly payroll as a loan - but then did an 8 week covered period (2x monthly payroll). Most of them will owe ~20% of the loan back to their lender since they had minimal other expenses.

>Most of them will owe ~20% of the loan back to their lender since they had minimal other expenses. That was my entire point is that the loans were designed to forgive a minimum of 75% of the loan, but it is 100% forgiven if they limited their loan application to 8 weeks of payroll. All the people you know took 20% more for salary than they were supposed to and they should pay it back. Even based on your personal exp…

I think this is a misunderstanding of the intention. The 80% means "we want you to spend this money on employee payroll, not a new boat" and they expressed that wish by saying "it needs to all be spent on payroll" , modified with "well, at least 80% on payroll and the balance on other essential non jetski expenses". So if the business spent 100% on payroll expenses that's just fine. It's the 79% and less they're worried about.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#315

Post by dboreham » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 11:47 PM UTC

throwaway_USD wrote: post #288

apinstein wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not true that entire loan is forgiven if the payroll percent is met. Only the actual money spent on forgivable expenses (payroll + rent + interest on some debt) is forgivable. If you read the forgiveness application this is clear. Overall though I’d expect 75-95% of program funds to be forgiven as they have extended the time window from 8 to 24 weeks making it much easier to use all funds in a forgivable way.

>It is not true that entire loan is forgiven if the payroll percent is met. Where did I say that?

It says exactly what the parent said: loan funds must have been spent on legit essential expenses, 80% or more of which must be payroll.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#316

Post by dboreham » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 11:52 PM UTC

mushbino wrote: post #214

tinalumfoil wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should they not have taken it? I seriously considered not cashing my stimulus check until I talked to multiple well off people that cashed their dead relative's checks. There just isnt a cultural expectation in the US that you wouldn't take what you're given. EDIT: Rethinking my comment I'm giving myself too much credit. Since I never got a physical check, I couldn't have "not cashed it" if I wanted to.

To your point, I know a bunch of people who applied for the forgivable loans just to see if they could get it. I know a guy who owns over two hundred Domino's franchises and got a $6M forgivable loan and his business has been up 30% since covid started. He can't hire people fast enough. Another friend was pissed that he wasn't approved for a loan too even though he has zero employees.

He may not have known these facts at the time he applied for the loan. There was extreme urgency projected from the banks at that time (get your application in at 10pm on the Friday the program opened up to stand a chance of getting a loan). So business owners had to decide on that day if their business was going to turn down in the next few months. An essentially unknowable thing for many/most businesses.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#317

Post by digitaltrees » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 11:54 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #277

digitaltrees wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if people criticize these initial attempts and prevent more assistance. Yes. This is going to get worse, but government support could continue.

That's pretty much what people describe when they say "privatize the profits, socialize the losses", isn't it? And you're already preparing to shift the blame towards the people critical of that approach.

Privatizing profit and socializing losses is better applied to more ordinary situations where ordinary business risk is shifted to the public. Here we are taking about the total possible social loss caused by a pandemic, not ordinary business risk. The point is that in society will be more harmed by inaction than supporting businesses.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#318

Post by dboreham » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 11:55 PM UTC

digitaltrees wrote: post #178

JPKab wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of weirdness lately about people expecting companies to not take the money. The virus wasn't any company's fault. The choice to respond to the virus by shutting down the economy wasn't any company's fault. Previous epidemics in human history have been dealt with by simply accepting a death rate that modern society, via government policy, has chosen to not accept. This was an unprecedented response that…

I agree with this. Any argument about moral hazard is out the window. Any argument about this being like “too big to fail” is misapplied. Banks in 2008 created the crisis and their risky loan portfolios and balance sheets. No company created Covid or state shutdowns. Let’s come together with a spirit of generosity and cooperation. Not petulance and resentment.

All the talk about companies shouldn't take the money happened after the fact. At the time the program was publicized as "we're injecting cash, no questions asked, into all businesses". Basically just like the "checks mailed to everyone" done at the same time.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#319

Post by ryanwaggoner » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 11:59 PM UTC

_curious_ wrote: post #305

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a strong case to be made that, given our position as the world's reserve currency (without any clear challenger) and our dirt-cheap borrowing costs, the national debt is pretty close to free money. It's not like we're ever going to roll up our sleeves and pay it off, or even down. We'll just inflate it away. I'm not arguing for unrestricted spending, but a couple trillion to avoid economic collapse, borrowed…

The issue with this line of thinking is that it doesn't end...until it does. Neither you nor I will likely be alive, but our children may very well be :/

I'm not arguing for unrestricted spending, but a couple trillion to avoid economic collapse, borrowed at effectively 0% interest, seems like a deal worth taking.

Would it be better to let the city burn down today because we're worried about a water shortage in 100 years?

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#320

Post by digitaltrees » Wed, Jul 08, 2020, 12:00 AM UTC

throwaway_kufu wrote: post #284

digitaltrees wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually there is promised compensation in hurricane emergencies in the form of SBA EIDL (economic injury disaster loans). The existence of imminent domain proves my point, there are circumstances where tax payers owe An obligation to property owners and their actions are restricted by that obligation. Now we can argue about whether this specific act is a taking but I destroyed your blanket argument that tax payers d…

In imminent domain if your property is taken you receive compensation, here many businesses closed and didn’t get PPP money, the government picked winners and losers. Again feel free to cite any law supporting your argument: 1) the shutdown orders were a government taking of private property; And 2.) compensation for a temporary taking. You missed the entire point of hurricanes, before any damage occurs governments o…

I wouldn't expect there to be law given that the government as never responded to a pandemic in the way that it has now. Your argument that it is temporary may be persuasive, but I wonder if that disappears if the shutdown order is long enough that it results in the business failing.

Your point of the hurricane is not persuasive, in that situation, the hurricane does the damage, the government order is ancillary. Here, the shut down order is more of a direct cause in the business harm.