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Searchable PPP Loan Data

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Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#261

Post by SpelingBeeChamp »

eric_b wrote: post #220
throwaway_USD wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"what about the nail salon who has 14 employees and took 5-10M?!?!". If true that is an obvious case of fraud and you are making my point, the only time a loan will be repaid is if the money was spent on things other than payroll...which amounts to fraud. Who cares if its a nail salon? Math is math, if you have 14 employees the maximum eligibility would be 8 weeks of payroll with a cap at $100k salary + up to an add…

I know lots of folks who got PPP loans. I don't know anyone who's getting 100% of their loan forgiven. Mainly because they took 2.5x monthly payroll as a loan - but then did an 8 week covered period (2x monthly payroll). Most of them will owe ~20% of the loan back to their lender since they had minimal other expenses.

Why would they have be limited to an 8 week covered period? It is possible to elect that, but the PPP Flexibility Act extended the “covered period” with respect to loan forgiveness from the original '8 weeks after the loan is disbursed' to 'the earlier of 24 weeks after the loan is disbursed, or 12/31/20.'

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#262

Post by [deleted] »

luckylion wrote: post #244
dopamean wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the loan isn't designed to be paid back. So what are you getting at?

If it's not designed to be paid back, is it a loan? noun: loan; plural noun: loans a thing that is borrowed, especially a sum of money that is expected to be paid back with interest. Is it just called a loan because that sounds better than just calling it a subsidy?

[deleted]

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#263

Post by SpelingBeeChamp »

acdanger wrote: post #238
eric_b wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know lots of folks who got PPP loans. I don't know anyone who's getting 100% of their loan forgiven. Mainly because they took 2.5x monthly payroll as a loan - but then did an 8 week covered period (2x monthly payroll). Most of them will owe ~20% of the loan back to their lender since they had minimal other expenses.

I believe that ~20% portion is forgivable as well so long as it was an approved expense and they the ~80% was put towards payroll.

It's all forgivable. And the PPP Flexibility Act raised the cap on non-payroll spending from 25% to 40% of the amount of the loan.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#264

Post by azinman2 »

throwaway_USD wrote: post #164
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree, and I think this is important to emphasize. I was involved in researching the requirements for a PPP loan for a nonprofit. I can guarantee that the vast majority of businesses (like 95%+) took out these loans with the intention they would never be paid back. Indeed, that was a feature, not a bug, of the whole "loan" program. If you took out the loans to keep employees on staff (and did so), then you ha…

>So it kind of irks me to see some people frame this like a large percentage of these loans will be paid back. I constantly see this..."its not free money, its a loan, and the money will be paid back with interest, just like in 2008." No, its free money for businesses, many of which will fail and let their employees go anyway. Then you hear people claim how somehow it was a victory to keep people off unemployment for…

If you can help a business stay afloat, then people get to keep their jobs long term. Many businesses are on a threshold, especially a place like a restaurant. They might be still doing take out, people are still working, but business isn't as good as it was previously.

If you do nothing and let tons of businesses close, then there's a huge chunk of the machinery of the economy missing once you start loosening the health regulations.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#265

Post by marcinzm »

throwaway_kufu wrote: post #242
marcinzm wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There is no end in sight to either corona virus or the economic downturn Most states are re-opening, ill-advised or not, and businesses are being allowed to operate again.

I didn’t say shutdown I said economic downturn. Whether the open or not has no bearing if they will remain in business.

>Whether the open or not has no bearing if they will remain in business.

It very much does. Amazing how much harder it's to stay in business when your revenue is 0.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#266

Post by pbhjpbhj »

_curious_ wrote: post #182
odonnellryan wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You pay taxes. You should take what the government gives you in return. I suppose there are many opinions here, but I have plenty of friends who refuse to take unemployment insurance, when they've paid into it for years (sometimes decades).

Why do you think that is?

I was in that situation last year (in UK). There was about 2 months we could have claimed for help as I was out of work. I had secured a job though, and we had some (small) savings, so it was going to be messy.

There's lots we could have spent the money on, but we didn't need it - we've had to go without meals before, this wasn't that.

I think one can easily justify taking the money when you don't need it. Possibly the most moral action would have been to take it and help people who couldn't get the help and really needed.

We've had no problem taking charity, still most of the kids clothes are hand-me-downs from other families; and I don't see income support as charity per se, and we take income support of other types not related to being jobless.

The "you've paid in" argument would probably not be on our side either.

Maybe that fleshes things out anecdotally.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#268

Post by luckylion »

dopamean wrote: post #252
luckylion wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's not designed to be paid back, is it a loan? noun: loan; plural noun: loans a thing that is borrowed, especially a sum of money that is expected to be paid back with interest. Is it just called a loan because that sounds better than just calling it a subsidy?

So the issue is with what the government is calling it?

I believe that's why the parent comment had used quotes. It's not a loan, it's a subsidy. Calling it a loan is misleading, because loans are meant to be paid back, and this isn't.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#269

Post by kolbe »

eric_b wrote: post #260
throwaway_USD wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most of them will owe ~20% of the loan back to their lender since they had minimal other expenses. That was my entire point is that the loans were designed to forgive a minimum of 75% of the loan, but it is 100% forgiven if they limited their loan application to 8 weeks of payroll. All the people you know took 20% more for salary than they were supposed to and they should pay it back. Even based on your personal exp…

Eh, I think the way I described it was fine. These are loans. I don't know anyone who's had even a single dollar forgiven yet. As far as I know there has been no official "forgiveness". What do you call a loan that you still owe? A loan. Once the forgiveness guidance is finalized and people are actually receiving it, then perhaps I will recharacterize my description.

If I give you $80,000 and loan you $20,000, the semantically important part of my action is as a "gift", not a "loan". Why do you want us to ignore the $80,000 and only pay attention to the $20,000?

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#270

Post by throwaway_USD »

robhunter wrote: post #222
throwaway_USD wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So it kind of irks me to see some people frame this like a large percentage of these loans will be paid back. I constantly see this..."its not free money, its a loan, and the money will be paid back with interest, just like in 2008." No, its free money for businesses, many of which will fail and let their employees go anyway. Then you hear people claim how somehow it was a victory to keep people off unemployment for…

I think it's helpful to follow the money. If it goes to salaries, those salaries are taxed (both payroll taxes for the employer and income taxes for the employee). Those salaries, for the most part, get spent - on things with sales tax, creating business profits that are taxed, and supporting the employment of employees' whose wages are also taxed. The idea that it's one giant money suck for businesses with no immedi…

>The idea that it's one giant money suck for businesses with no immediate return to the economy is not really accurate - it's not a zero-sum game.

No one argues $600B wouldn't help the economy. Can you point to where I said PPP will not help the economy?

Most people are starting to understand the fraud involved with PPP and understanding those funds could have gone to individuals and the money would have found its way back into the economy just the same...only faster as its not distributed out over 8 weeks with 25% reserved for non-payroll business expenses.

Of course there are arguments for why the money should have gone to businesses as it did and not people...but you don't hear any lawmakers making those argument publicly and if you do its limited to "we are saving jobs." My argument, if you feel compelled to call it that, is that there is no proof these jobs have been saved unless delaying unemployment by 8 weeks is considered a job.

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