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Searchable PPP Loan Data

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Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#191

Post by digitaltrees »

throwaway_kufu wrote: post #161
revnode wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should taxpayers have bailed out businesses that couldn’t keep employees on payroll though? Because those same taxpayers voted in a government that prohibited many of those businesses from operating. > There is no end in sight to either corona virus or the economic downturn, so it’s just throwing 8 weeks worth of taxpayer money into bad investments. What’s going to happen within 8 weeks to ensure these employee…

Taxpayers owe businesses nothing, if a business can’t survive 8 weeks without a taxpayer bailout then it’s a bad investment and at this scale it is a fundamental weakness of the entire economy that should be fixed not propped up with taxpayer money. > The funds can only be used for payroll to be forgiven. That an odd way to say up to 25% of the loan can be used for non-payroll expenses like business rent...why are bu…

No business can survive under those conditions and that is not a valid critique of their viability under a range of ordinary conditions.

Tax payer do own businesses due process under law and a respect for private property rights. In America, the government can’t seize a business without compensation. Mandatory shut downs, in the absence of financial assistance, is arguably a “taking” under the constitution and a violation of basic inalienable rights we as citizens each have.

As far as 25% being spend on other things. It’s kind of pointless to pay employees but not pay rent, get evicted, and have no place for them to go...kind of defeats the point. A restaurant kind of needs its physical location to operate and offer people jobs.

This isn’t about “funneling funds to individuals” that’s what unemployment insurance and stimulus checks were for. This was also about saving businesses so we don’t enter a depression.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#192

Post by _curious_ »

hprotagonist wrote: post #139

Without this program, my employer would have had to either lay off a large group of employees or we would've gone under. As it is, out of a group of about 50, we furloughed 8, who continued without pay, qualified for unemployment benefits, but retained 100% health coverage. Two have returned to work already and we anticipate being more or less normal again in time to meet the loan forgiveness criteria. It's good to h…

So will your employer be paying the "loan" back?

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#193

Post by xrd »

ksdale wrote: post #149
xrd wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens if that happens? What recourse, if any, does an employee have in that case? Is anyone looking out for those cases?

I'm not sure what you mean about recourse. If the employee isn't paid, the employer has to pay the money back, they don't get to keep it.

Let's say the employee was furloughed. But, the company applied and got PPP funds by saying they wouldn't furlough anyone. The employee was told one thing, but the reality was another. This could be a fraudulent form of a bridge loan, right? Easier to get in a crisis, the banks will only figure it out later.

Financing for startups has probably totally dried up. I bet a lot of VCs said: "We don't have any more funding for you, but try this approach..." And, they recommended going after PPP and at the same time recommended firing people to slim down the salary burden, but only after the PPP loan was safely in place. That extra time could be a lifeline for a startup.

I think this is what happened to me.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#194

Post by digitaltrees »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #39
tfandango wrote: post #26

Just looking through my home town for businesses I know about... A fair number of them I know carried on with business as usual and had no financial problems (one I used to work for). Seems wrong when there are lots of people in the same town lining up outside the unemployment office every day...

Because the goal wasn’t to help the people most affected. It was to maintain the socioeconomic order so that people would be incentivized to continue doing menial work for low wages. If you give people at the bottom a choice to not work, by giving them cash directly, then they would have better negotiating power versus employers. The employers would then have to raise wages, and therefore prices. That means consumers…

I don’t think you can make this argument when at the same time the government was paying an extra $600 per week on top of regular pay for unemployment.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#195

Post by codegeek »

vsareto wrote: post #167
eric_b wrote: post #77

So many complaints here. Based on the comments I think there is some misunderstanding about the nuts and bolts of this program. These are loans. They are two year low interest loans. They have to be paid back unless some or all is forgiven. Forgiveness requires documentation on employees retained, wage history, and is capped at $20k/employee maximum. And of course a piece of that comes back to the government in terms…

>I know many households who received $4k+ in stimulus checks that didn't need it. Should they not have taken it? I'd rather have some of the waste money going to families over businesses for once. Families have to worry about loss of income and loss of health during this. Businesses just have to worry about income. Families are more fragile and should be prioritized.

I am not necessarily disagreeing with you but a lot of small businesses in the US survive on thin margins and the owners also don't make a lot of money necessarily. So it is not always the case that a company only has to worry about income. They have to worry about paying employees, ensuring they can meet payroll (which in turn helps families of those workers), keep liabilities in check and many other issues.

I am totally with you when it comes to companies with deep pockets but a lot of very small businesses are really just a group of individuals trying to survive together.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#196

Post by _curious_ »

1-6 wrote: post #180
greatwave1 wrote: post #8

I'm working on a dashboard to map each of these loans geographically: https://www.quiverquant.com/sources/sbaloans It's a slow process (as I've been respectful of the rate-limit on the reverse geocoding API I'm using), but I finished mapping four states and hope to complete the other 46 by the end of this week.

Great, we can now walk around with pitchforks. I'm kidding These loans have benefited numerous small businesses but we can now keep an eye on those who did not really need it.

"but we can now keep an eye on those who did not really need it." Who's to say?

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#197

Post by marcinzm »

throwaway_kufu wrote: post #127
marcinzm wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Of particular reference here - startups that laid off employees and /then/ applied for a PPP loan Aren't these exactly the companies that SHOULD have received PPP? They were clearly struggling and without the money were reducing head count already.

Why should taxpayers have bailed out businesses that couldn’t keep employees on payroll though? There is no end in sight to either corona virus or the economic downturn, so it’s just throwing 8 weeks worth of taxpayer money into bad investments. What’s going to happen within 8 weeks to ensure these employees won’t just be let go again?

>There is no end in sight to either corona virus or the economic downturn

Most states are re-opening, ill-advised or not, and businesses are being allowed to operate again.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#198

Post by rco8786 »

reaperducer wrote: post #147
llamataboot wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is, yes. If you keep the same headcount and use at least 60% of it for payroll (not exactly clear how you prove that since money is fungible), it is essentially a stimulus check

It shouldn't be too hard to prove. Every time a company writes a payroll check the government knows exactly how much it was for and who got it. Seems like simple math.

Yes, but an entirely different branch of government is who knows about it. Don't overestimate the ability of two disparate departments of an extremely large organization to communicate with one another.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#199

Post by [deleted] »

throwaway_USD wrote: post #113
eric_b wrote: post #77

So many complaints here. Based on the comments I think there is some misunderstanding about the nuts and bolts of this program. These are loans. They are two year low interest loans. They have to be paid back unless some or all is forgiven. Forgiveness requires documentation on employees retained, wage history, and is capped at $20k/employee maximum. And of course a piece of that comes back to the government in terms…

>These are loans. They are two year low interest loans. They have to be paid back unless some or all is forgiven. This is a highly politicized way to frame PPP loans. Its more like: "These loans are forgiven, unless you scammed the government." These loans were specifically designed to be forgiven, a minimum of 75% of the loan was to be for payroll and if used for payroll (what it was supposed to be used for) that po…

[deleted]

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#200

Post by digitaltrees »

cj wrote: post #43
tfandango wrote: post #26

Just looking through my home town for businesses I know about... A fair number of them I know carried on with business as usual and had no financial problems (one I used to work for). Seems wrong when there are lots of people in the same town lining up outside the unemployment office every day...

Not sure why this comment is being downvoted. I just searched my local city and noticed that our (for profit) ambulance service received a loan: > DIAZ MEMORIAL AMBULANCE SERVICE INC I definitely don't think they saw the number of ambulance rides go down. And also don't think their profits suffered.

Actually they did go down. Lots of evidence that people were not going to the hospital out of fear of Covid exposure

But let’s assume your premise; it’s likely their costs went up dramatically between Personal protective equipment, hazard pay, quarantine procedures for exposed employees etc.

Ambulance services are capital intensive (ie large Debt payments) and low margin. A 20% drop in revenue would bankrupt the company.

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