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Searchable PPP Loan Data

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Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#161

Post by throwaway_kufu »

revnode wrote: post #153
throwaway_kufu wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should taxpayers have bailed out businesses that couldn’t keep employees on payroll though? There is no end in sight to either corona virus or the economic downturn, so it’s just throwing 8 weeks worth of taxpayer money into bad investments. What’s going to happen within 8 weeks to ensure these employees won’t just be let go again?

> Why should taxpayers have bailed out businesses that couldn’t keep employees on payroll though? Because those same taxpayers voted in a government that prohibited many of those businesses from operating. > There is no end in sight to either corona virus or the economic downturn, so it’s just throwing 8 weeks worth of taxpayer money into bad investments. What’s going to happen within 8 weeks to ensure these employee…

Taxpayers owe businesses nothing, if a business can’t survive 8 weeks without a taxpayer bailout then it’s a bad investment and at this scale it is a fundamental weakness of the entire economy that should be fixed not propped up with taxpayer money.

> The funds can only be used for payroll to be forgiven.

That an odd way to say up to 25% of the loan can be used for non-payroll expenses like business rent...why are businesses getting loans to pay rent if it’s about employees? Employees didn’t get money for rent.

If it was truly about “funneling funds to individuals” they could have just done that, not given it to businesses first with a 25% extra for non-payroll expenses.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#162

Post by j-c-hewitt »

Anyone who saw these offers and did not expect the strings attached in terms of government meddling and/or decentralized witch-hunting for taking the money offered was foolish. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#163

Post by digitaltrees »

mbesto wrote: post #122
eric_b wrote: post #77

So many complaints here. Based on the comments I think there is some misunderstanding about the nuts and bolts of this program. These are loans. They are two year low interest loans. They have to be paid back unless some or all is forgiven. Forgiveness requires documentation on employees retained, wage history, and is capped at $20k/employee maximum. And of course a piece of that comes back to the government in terms…

> Forgiveness requires documentation on employees retained, wage history, and is capped at $20k/employee maximum. And of course a piece of that comes back to the government in terms of payroll taxes. Just because a company took a 1M loan, doesn't mean it will be 100% forgiven. I think your misunderstanding is that the rules actually get followed. What happens when everyone in the scheme comes back and says "the econo…

Why would it be a problem to redesign a social policy in the social interest? So what if everyone one comes and says PPP needs to be amended to do better in service of the country. Isn’t that what we want. It’s a good thing that they increased the spending period from 8 weeks to 24. Most restaurants were closed by state orders and were faced with forcing employees to come off unemployment (and employees resisted because unemployment was way better for them as they got an extra $600 week on top of regular pay) only to then pay them to stay home. Instead, by extending the spending window we give restaurants a fighting chance to have money to start operations again when it’s safe.

Let’s tone down the rhetoric a bit, in no way are PPP loans close to rape or murder in magnitude of harm so it’s an inflammatory analogy with no purpose.

In terms of the actual problems with PPP and percent of bad loans. Think of the counter factual. Would you rather have 1% bad loans or a wave of bankruptcies and layoffs triggering a depression that last 10 years? What about 10% bad loans? 50%?

The PPP was well designed and administered under the circumstances. Let’s make improvements because we are not out of the woods yet. But let’s not scape goat or focus on the edge case problems and then destroy all of the benefits prevented harm.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#164

Post by throwaway_USD »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #154
throwaway_USD wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>These are loans. They are two year low interest loans. They have to be paid back unless some or all is forgiven. This is a highly politicized way to frame PPP loans. Its more like: "These loans are forgiven, unless you scammed the government." These loans were specifically designed to be forgiven, a minimum of 75% of the loan was to be for payroll and if used for payroll (what it was supposed to be used for) that po…

Totally agree, and I think this is important to emphasize. I was involved in researching the requirements for a PPP loan for a nonprofit. I can guarantee that the vast majority of businesses (like 95%+) took out these loans with the intention they would never be paid back. Indeed, that was a feature, not a bug, of the whole "loan" program. If you took out the loans to keep employees on staff (and did so), then you ha…

>So it kind of irks me to see some people frame this like a large percentage of these loans will be paid back.

I constantly see this..."its not free money, its a loan, and the money will be paid back with interest, just like in 2008."

No, its free money for businesses, many of which will fail and let their employees go anyway.

Then you hear people claim how somehow it was a victory to keep people off unemployment for 8 weeks, but not a single person can explain why that is such a benefit. Its sort of like saying hey when Corona virus began I stopped flights from Country X and saved 10's of thousands of lives...maybe deaths were delayed but there is no evidence they were prevented.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#165

Post by mardifoufs »

schoolornot wrote: post #47

Of all types of institutions, why should we be giving the banks the right to decide which businesses should be recession proof or not? Personal opinion but I would have required the applicants of these quasi-forgiveness loans to give up 35% of their businesses to the state/county/federal inclusive of all assets and investments non-dischargeable by bankruptcy. We have 100,000 people dead in this country, million dolla…

I don't think you realize just how perilous the economic situation was in mid-late march. Money had to reach Businesses very quickly, regardless if some of the money would end up wasted. Only banks have the manpower, infrastructure and knowledge already in place to reach even small businesses across the entire country. There was absolutely no way for any governmental agency to be able to manage such a huge program in such a small timeframe.

Again, I can't stress how important time was. I study and work in financial engineering, and from what I've seen and directly experienced in the depth of the crisis, we were days from total seizure in the financial system. The only part that was still doing ok was banking (due to what happened after 2008). Adding to that, since it's much harder to just give millions of dollars of loans to anyone who demands than it is to give 2000$ per person through the IRS, you had to have a system to vet, check and analyse claims. That's exactly what banks were able to do almost immediately with minimal adjustments.

I agree that it is far from ideal for the private sector to such a big influence on a public program. But perfect is the enemy of good, especially considering the incredible human misery that failing could've led to.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#166

Post by matwood »

tinalumfoil wrote: post #95
eric_b wrote: post #77

So many complaints here. Based on the comments I think there is some misunderstanding about the nuts and bolts of this program. These are loans. They are two year low interest loans. They have to be paid back unless some or all is forgiven. Forgiveness requires documentation on employees retained, wage history, and is capped at $20k/employee maximum. And of course a piece of that comes back to the government in terms…

> Should they not have taken it? I seriously considered not cashing my stimulus check until I talked to multiple well off people that cashed their dead relative's checks. There just isnt a cultural expectation in the US that you wouldn't take what you're given. EDIT: Rethinking my comment I'm giving myself too much credit. Since I never got a physical check, I couldn't have "not cashed it" if I wanted to.

> I talked to multiple well off people that cashed their dead relative's checks.

I wouldn't judge a program because of people committing outright fraud.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#167

Post by vsareto »

eric_b wrote: post #77

So many complaints here. Based on the comments I think there is some misunderstanding about the nuts and bolts of this program. These are loans. They are two year low interest loans. They have to be paid back unless some or all is forgiven. Forgiveness requires documentation on employees retained, wage history, and is capped at $20k/employee maximum. And of course a piece of that comes back to the government in terms…

>I know many households who received $4k+ in stimulus checks that didn't need it. Should they not have taken it?

I'd rather have some of the waste money going to families over businesses for once. Families have to worry about loss of income and loss of health during this. Businesses just have to worry about income. Families are more fragile and should be prioritized.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#168

Post by digitaltrees »

_fullpint wrote: post #141
latortuga wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's still PPP money left so I'm not sure what your point about the finite sum is.

I stand corrected. Early reports were reporting that many were not able to obtain loans due to the fund being consumed. I’ll delete my comment.

Your comment is not entirely wrong. The reality is the $130B is left because people were too scarred to touch it after the government threatened to criminally prosecute companies after public outrage of large public companies obtaining loans. The public outrage was driven, in part, by the fact that lots of small businesses didn’t get loans before funds ran out the first round. That’s not a sign that there were adequate funds.

There are estimates that we actually need a second PPP of the same size ($600B) because lock downs are going to start again.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#169

Post by vsareto »

mc32 wrote: post #108
tinalumfoil wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should they not have taken it? I seriously considered not cashing my stimulus check until I talked to multiple well off people that cashed their dead relative's checks. There just isnt a cultural expectation in the US that you wouldn't take what you're given. EDIT: Rethinking my comment I'm giving myself too much credit. Since I never got a physical check, I couldn't have "not cashed it" if I wanted to.

>’ cashed their dead relative's checks.’ Unless there is some weird allowance (widower/widow inheritance, etc.) wouldn’t this be straight fraud? I know in some countries people don’t report their relatives’ deaths in order to keep receiving their benefits, but obviously that’s illegal too.

>Unless there is some weird allowance (widower/widow inheritance, etc.) wouldn’t this be straight fraud?

I'd think if the estate is still open, it'd get rolled into that as income legally.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#170

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

_fullpint wrote: post #141
latortuga wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's still PPP money left so I'm not sure what your point about the finite sum is.

I stand corrected. Early reports were reporting that many were not able to obtain loans due to the fund being consumed. I’ll delete my comment.

You're not actually wrong, to be fair.

They allocated 350bn, it all got spent.

Then they allocated more, and some of that second round of money is left.

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