My academic friends are going absolutely bananas over this. Particularly at the graduate level, and particularly in technical fields, this will leave some departments unable to function. Even domestic students will suffer. And that's all aside from the long term effect on national competitiveness. I've seen some mention mercantilism, but this isn't even effective as that. True mercantilism would mean doing even more to keep other countries from benefiting from those students' knowledge and labor. This is not mercantilism; it's a very different and almost suicidal kind of nativism.
Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote
201–210 of 231 posts
Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote
#202Key quote: >” Visa requirements for students have always been strict and coming to the US to take online-only courses has been prohibited.” So it’s a reinforcement of policy rather than change although some institutions would like to see accommodation for this kind of circumstance —which is understandable if students came here with the intent to attend in person, but it’s worth noting the the visa requirements have n…
Right, but unlike a designed-to-be-online program, depending on the university/each individual class, many of the classes are not going to be designed with timezone differences in mind, not designed to get through local internet filters, etc. The thinking behind the rules is that there is no need to live in the US to participate in a fully-online program, but this is not applicable to a regular program that is temporarily forced to run online due to the pandemic only.
Additionally, this ignores the financial losses (ex costs of breaking leases, selling property, expensive/hard to schedule air travel which may require more legs than usual now, shipping, large currency conversions) caused by a sudden move back. Additionally, there will be costs to get internet access and other necessary materials back home. Some institutions still have not announced their plans, and they can change at any time.
These are people who want to and have been living on campus. They are not just taking advantage of the visa to sit in front of a computer screen for four years--so there is no reason they should have to leave. This clearly has no relevance to the initial intent of the policy, and refusing to waive it in this case demonstrates the government's effort to hurt people of other nationalities in any way possible.
Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote
#203Earlier quoted context omitted.
> More labor means cheaper labor. The US population has grown from ~150 million in 1950 to ~350 million now.
Interesting. Describe real wage growth over that time period.
If you think the average wage in 1950 can get you more stuff than 2020, educate me then.
The only thing that got more expensive relatively speaking is housing. Which kind of make sense because land area don't tend to change.
Look around at your house and answer if you could get the same stuff (or even, poor replacement of the same stuff) if you're at the same percentile of income in 1950s.
Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote
#204Some of you may find this quite interesting.
https://www.ineteconomics.org/uploads/papers/Weinstein-GUI_N...
Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote
#205Earlier quoted context omitted.
“It’s the law” is a terrible rationale though. Our values should inform our laws and their interpretation, not the other way around. There is a clear externality forcing this situation and it is clearly more detrimental to force them out of the country than to just make special accommodations/provisions. Pass a bill if that makes it more palatable and set it to have a termination date with the ability to “re-up” if t…
Some logic needs to come in too though, what is the point of an international student renting an apartment in the US and taking a class over the Internet? Student visas make good sense, allow people from around the world to come here and get an education which is better or different and have a cultural exchange... but if coming here just gets you the cultural exchange of going to the grocery store and watching lectur…
They’re already here, travel is potentially dangerous (especially a large exodus of international students), time zone issues, ability to pick back up where they left off easily, possible local employment/internships, apartments/hoisting they’re under a lease for, the undoubtedly insane cluster it’ll be when folks try to return...the list goes on dude. That’s off the top of my head. Surely you can see how burdensome this “solution” is?
Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote
#206I'm genuine curious what economic benefits this brings. With the very limited economics I've learned, most students are net spenders in the country, them being here will only pour more money in. Economically, how does stopping them coming in help anyone?
Driving down aggregate demand for higher education can help bring down the cost (how effectively would depend on the elasticity of supply, which I'm not sure about). Fresh grads coming out of college with less debt should lead to higher aggregate spending in other sectors.
This is interesting. But this sounds like a long term effect right? Presumably universities aren't lowering tuitions just because of this semester?
Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote
#207I'm genuine curious what economic benefits this brings. With the very limited economics I've learned, most students are net spenders in the country, them being here will only pour more money in. Economically, how does stopping them coming in help anyone?
It helps politicians to get elected. Immigrants don't vote (they can't), citizens with anti-immigrant sentiments do.
I mean this is obviously part of the consideration. But I'm curious about rational economic gains if there're any.
Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote
#208Seems like bs to me. If you're on the other side of the planet you're expected to be online at 3am for lectures and exams? Ridiculous.
You’ve clearly never taken an online class. Lectures are recorded, exams are usually flexible open windows
My wife is in a masters program right now and all the lectures are live.
Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote
#209Earlier quoted context omitted.
Vote.
Unfortunately, Democrats don't have a great track record of passing pro skilled immigration bills either. In 2009-2010, when Democrats controlled the house and the senate as well as the presidency, they didn't bring in a single major immigration reform bill [1]. The DREAM act for childhood arrivals didn't pass the senate, and DACA was later passed through executive order in 2012. And right now some Democrats continue…
The immigration debate looked very different ten years ago. I’m not sure we should expect the same policies.
Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote
#210https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23751931 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23755301 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23753413 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23753182
@dang - Flagging as [dupe] shouldn't remove an article from the HN front page, especially when none of the other articles are actively on the front page. Also, all [dupe] article comments should be merged and visible under each separate [dupe] article, so organic user dialogue isn't split up and minimized.
Front page space is the scarcest resource on HN [1]. If we didn't remove dupes, the site would be Dupes R Us. Also, since the idea of HN is to avoid repetition [2], there wouldn't be anyone left here because readers would mutiny.
We commonly merge duplicate threads, but we don't catch them all. In the case of a sensational story like this one, where there's an endless supply of comments and the threads are more or less interchangeable, it's perhaps less important.
[1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
[2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...