From a hobbyist and preservation perspective, it would be cool if this could be used to produce some form of the Apollo 68080 core to revive the 68k architecture a little bit, and build out the Debian m68k port [0][1]. The last "big" 68k chips were produced in 1995 (that would be a 350nm process?) so this could be hugely improved on 130nm. The 68080 core is currently implemented in FPGAs only and is already the faste…
Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips
61–70 of 404 posts
Re: Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips
#62Re: Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips
#63Can someone please tell me how photo-masks are produced? I don't understand how can tiny features be printed at almost the same scale as a final structure? With a laser beam? Say, as an input you have a layer description (schematics) - how can you transfer it to a tiny scale so precisely to produce a mask?
Re: Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips
#64Well done Google. But there is still problem with EDA tool license... Is there any replacement for Cadence Virtuoso tool for chip design?
The efabless people that the talk mentions a bunch of times are using a fully open-source design flow but I think it's a bit hacky (as in, a bunch of command line tools from various open source projects, some of which may be unmaintained judging by the commit logs). They seem to have successfully fabricated a RISC-V based SoC with it though, which is crazy cool. As somebody with a decent amount of FPGA experience, ha…
Now, how do you generate these layouts? It depends on what you are doing. If more on the experimental side of things, writing scripts to generate structures is fine, as long as these conform to the fab-provided design rules. Technically, that's still what everyone is doing at the industrial level, except the scripts -- often written in tcl -- are provided by the fab.
Now if you have some FPGA experience, you are probably interested in logic synthesis tools. There are a few ones, I've seen some academic with their own place-and-route stage, for instance. https://open-src-soc.org/program.html#T-CHAPUT does that, I think.
The slides linked above outline one of the possible ways to do this: leverage chisel ( https://www.chisel-lang.org/) and the FIRRTL intermediate representation for RTL description. A few tools can ingest the output and try to come up with a layout. Hammer (https://github.com/ucb-bar/hammer) is such a tool, but I don't think that PDK is available with it just yet. To be honest, I don't think commercial tools are that advanced, and it would be fairly doable to catch up.
There is some interesting work in this field, but since fabbing is expensive, it tends to be more within the academic community than the free software one. I'd look for papers, not on Github, though that's slowly changing.
The chip design world is a slow beast to turn around: everything in the fabrication process is optimized to maximize yield, hence very little leeway is allowed: "If it ain't broken, don't fix it" is the motto, for good reason: if changing humidity levels 0.2% can make a fab lose millions; they won't try to use new and experimental software.
I'm watching this space, notably with Verilog alternatives such as Migen. The open source community starts to embrace FPGA, wich is already great. I wish more manufacturers opened up their bitstream, so maybe we need an open FPGA? Though this free fabbing offer would be a great fit for Wi-Fi chips, I think. I wonder if People at openwifi (https://github.com/open-sdr/openwifi) are interested?
I hope that gives a few interesting pointers to whoever reads this :)
Re: Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips
#65How much has the power efficiency improved between 130nm and 7nm? Is it plausible to get better performance/watt for a custom chip on 130nm vs a software application running on a 7m chip? I get that hardware has other benefits but just wondering for accelerators where the cost/benefit starts to make sense.
Re: Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips
#66Re: Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips
#67How much has the power efficiency improved between 130nm and 7nm? Is it plausible to get better performance/watt for a custom chip on 130nm vs a software application running on a 7m chip? I get that hardware has other benefits but just wondering for accelerators where the cost/benefit starts to make sense.
> Is it plausible to get better performance/watt for a custom chip on 130nm vs a software application running on a 7m chip? This very, very much depends on what the algorithm is (integer or FP? how data dependent?), but I would say no for almost all interesting cases. The only exception would be if you're doing a "mixed signal" chip where some of the processing is inherently analogue and you can save power compared t…
Re: Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips
#68Well done Google. But there is still problem with EDA tool license... Is there any replacement for Cadence Virtuoso tool for chip design?
Maybe we could get Cadence to open source 20 year old software for the 20 year old 130nm chips!
And if they were to, I'd say that Cadence itself isn't especially easy to use, nor complicated to replicate. It would feel more like a lock-in attempt.
The gEDA project would be a good place to start a new layout-level EDA. It has the necessary tools for simulation, already. Synthesis and place-and-route tools exist, but there are many alternatives, documentation is lacking, and I am not sure that PDK is compatible.
I don't know of a good open-source drawing tool, but it shouldn't be too complicated to make a basic one. The more complex part would be to integrate it with DRC (design rule check). An then the usual Layout Schematic Extraction to perform LVS (Layout Versus Schematic) simulation, antenna rules, etc.
Thinking about it, it's a good thing that node isn't too advanced. It reduces the design rules complexity by a few orders of magnitude.
Re: Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips
#69What are the chances that google will add their own hidden or proprietary circuitry to any open-source chips? They'll add all sorts of "Security" and "Tracking" features..
Re: Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips
#70That sounds pretty huge. I've never seen on Hackaday or similar people getting small runs of chip fabbed. What are the broader implications of this? Will other fabs start to lower the barrier to production as well?
You generally don't do small runs of chips, unless cost is no object. The NRE costs of getting the masks made, even on older processes like these are still comfortably in the $X00,000 range, blowing past $1 million pretty quickly if you need a process that isn't ancient. That's without design software licenses, which can be hundreds of thousands more. So the minimum order quantity usually needs to be at least in the…