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Infosec community disagrees with changing 'black hat' term

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Re: Infosec community disagrees with changing 'black hat' term

#91

Post by fomine3 »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #15
galvin wrote: post #13

It's clear that some of the language we use needed to be changed, the previously used terms for primary and secondary hard drives are an obvious example. It seems to me that the notions related to black and white have broader cultural associations though. Light and dark or day and night have long been associated with good and bad. White similarly has associations with good and innocence hence the use for wedding dres…

You're still giving the idea too much credit, I think. Black is just a color. The attitude that all black-colored things are intrinsically associated with black people is itself bizarre and problematic.

That's exactly my thought. Why they should link a color to race?

Re: Infosec community disagrees with changing 'black hat' term

#92

Post by cheesecracker »

_8j50 wrote: post #63
cheesecracker wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Christianity perhaps?

Perhaps? Is that your go to boogeyman?

WTF? No, it just seems that they use white as symbol for purity and god - angels clad in white, brides in white dresses...

My sincere apologies for growing up in a Christian culture, making me an evil colonialist by birth. How can I make amends?

Boogeyman - we are talking about the colors black and white here. Get off your high horse!

Re: Infosec community disagrees with changing 'black hat' term

#93

Post by scoutt »

jointpdf wrote: post #48
fennecfoxen wrote: post #5

It's offensive in the same way as Call of Duty: Black Ops is offensive, which is "generally not actually offensive". However, it is possible to derive professional advancement from claiming that it is, so expect to see more of this in tech. Also not offensive: Black Friday, black holes, black beans, black tea, black-eyed peas, black gold (aka oil), Black Mirror, black swans.

I’m not taking a stance on the issue, but this quote from the article illustrates how blacklist vs. whitelist is different than the examples you gave: > “Others pointed to the dualism between black and white as representing evil and good, concepts that have been around since the dawn of civilizations, long before racial divides even existed between humans.” The supporters of the current terminology use this to bolste…

I wonder what would happen with terms like "grey area". Like in:

A: Is this thing bad or good, legal or illegal?

B: I think it's a grey area.

Re: Infosec community disagrees with changing 'black hat' term

#94

Post by [deleted] »

TerminalSystem3 wrote: post #85
salawat wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boulderdash. There is not a damn thing offensive about a combination of . We use constructs like that all the time. Or are we going to start saying "red lights" are offensive? Or "yellow lights"? Around yellow proceed with caution! Red means Stop! Danger! How about "Dark rooms"? Should we avoid that? Change red-black trees to green purple? Or hell, lets rope the electrical engineers into it. How dare black be the col…

Well said, and I like the quote. I think it's telling that the top response to your comment completely dodges the substance of the comment and just attacks your "diction." It seems to me that these moral purists are basically in a state of war - any rational argument against their position is met with overreactions, emotional responses, and insults. Sometimes I wonder whether some of this ridiculousness is put on by…

[deleted]

Re: Infosec community disagrees with changing 'black hat' term

#95

Post by _8j50 »

cheesecracker wrote: post #92
_8j50 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps? Is that your go to boogeyman?

WTF? No, it just seems that they use white as symbol for purity and god - angels clad in white, brides in white dresses... My sincere apologies for growing up in a Christian culture, making me an evil colonialist by birth. How can I make amends? Boogeyman - we are talking about the colors black and white here. Get off your high horse!

No,this is a universal concept. Night vs day, dark vs light. A strong light is associated with the color white, if you grew up in a Christian culture then you should know the Bible does speak a lot against judging people by appearances.

I am not on a high horse, but you picked a belief out of nowhere as if it was particularly significant to the topic, so boogeyman seemed an appropriate characterization.

Re: Infosec community disagrees with changing 'black hat' term

#96

Post by dmtroyer »

josteink wrote: post #68
toyg wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because black has been associated to “death” for millennia (it’s the color of night, which is traditionally dangerous), while white is associated to cleanliness and light. We’re talking Egyptian times, Ancient Greece, etc, when there wasn’t really a concept of “white skin” (more or less everyone in highly-populated European and North-African regions had brown skin, to survive under the sun; very few people e…

> The symbolism is extremely obvious and pre-dating even the “discovery of America”. Like anti-racists or BLM-activists care about facts.

wow.

Re: Infosec community disagrees with changing 'black hat' term

#97

Post by josteink »

sumedh wrote: post #84
josteink wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just spreading corona And causing riots, billions in property damages and innocent civilian lives lost (even before we’re considering the corona). At this point the BLM movement is a clear net negative for society.

> At this point the BLM movement is a clear net negative for society. What is your solution to bring awareness against police brutality and systematic racism?

> What is your solution to bring awareness against police brutality

Unlawful police brutality is bad regardless of who it is being committed against. Framing this as a "black" issue and not a general issue which everyone can unite on, is divisive.

The solution is obviously to provide better training for new police officers and foster a better attitude among the police force (in general, new or old) towards their role in society.

> systematic racism

I don't believe in unfounded claims. Are there actual data to back this extraordinary claim of systematic racism today (as opposed to in the past), or is this just internet-outrage?

Re: Infosec community disagrees with changing 'black hat' term

#98

Post by sumedh »

josteink wrote: post #97
sumedh wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At this point the BLM movement is a clear net negative for society. What is your solution to bring awareness against police brutality and systematic racism?

> What is your solution to bring awareness against police brutality Unlawful police brutality is bad regardless of who it is being committed against. Framing this as a "black" issue and not a general issue which everyone can unite on, is divisive. The solution is obviously to provide better training for new police officers and foster a better attitude among the police force (in general, new or old) towards their role…

> Framing this as a "black" issue and not a general issue which everyone can unite on, is divisive.

Everyone is united, why do you think they are not. A racist person obviously would not be united on this issue.

> The solution is obviously to provide better training for new police officers

So why wasn't this done earlier?

> (as opposed to in the past)

Ok, so what is your solution to fix the effects of past systematic racism.

Re: Infosec community disagrees with changing 'black hat' term

#99

Post by cheesecracker »

_8j50 wrote: post #95
cheesecracker wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WTF? No, it just seems that they use white as symbol for purity and god - angels clad in white, brides in white dresses... My sincere apologies for growing up in a Christian culture, making me an evil colonialist by birth. How can I make amends? Boogeyman - we are talking about the colors black and white here. Get off your high horse!

No,this is a universal concept. Night vs day, dark vs light. A strong light is associated with the color white, if you grew up in a Christian culture then you should know the Bible does speak a lot against judging people by appearances. I am not on a high horse, but you picked a belief out of nowhere as if it was particularly significant to the topic, so boogeyman seemed an appropriate characterization.

We were discussing good vs evil, though, not "strong light makes things white". Sure, there are probably some basic properties that make white a likely choice for purity - after all, you see dirt stains on white clothing much better than on dark clothing.

I don't know what you mean by "judging people by appearances", how is that relevant? I haven't read the bible, I personally ma not a Christian. I just grew up in Christian culture. And infosec presumably also predominantly developed in that culture, as it was dominating the Western world for wuite a while.

I don't think the bible says brides should be dressed in white, nevertheless it seems to be a common Christian tradition.

So no, it was not "picked out of nowhere", after all Christian religion was what has defined good and evil for hundreds of years now, in the world in which infosec developed.

Re: Infosec community disagrees with changing 'black hat' term

#100

Post by josteink »

sumedh wrote: post #98
josteink wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is your solution to bring awareness against police brutality Unlawful police brutality is bad regardless of who it is being committed against. Framing this as a "black" issue and not a general issue which everyone can unite on, is divisive. The solution is obviously to provide better training for new police officers and foster a better attitude among the police force (in general, new or old) towards their role…

> Framing this as a "black" issue and not a general issue which everyone can unite on, is divisive. Everyone is united, why do you think they are not. A racist person obviously would not be united on this issue. > The solution is obviously to provide better training for new police officers So why wasn't this done earlier? > (as opposed to in the past) Ok, so what is your solution to fix the effects of past systematic…

> Ok, so what is your solution to fix the effects of past systematic racism.

Whats your solution to fixing past inequality of wealth? Shall we disown the rich of their personal property?

Some problems we just decide not to fix and just move on, trying to create something with a more fair, and level playing field from here on.

I don’t see how we can handle this any differently.

Implementing systematic new racism in our time to fight racism from past times obviously won’t work and will just create new sets of problems for future generations.

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