Live data from Hacker News

Infosec community disagrees with changing 'black hat' term

zdnet.com

61–70 of 108 posts

Re: Infosec community disagrees with changing 'black hat' term

#61

Does this sudden upswell in irrelevant language policing not seem like some kind of coordinated op to discredit BLM? I don’t question that real people fall for it, but considering how wildly successful it’s been at distracting from material demands, like ending police violence, and how much the media has embraced these stories while ignoring ongoing protests, has me a little tinfoily...

I'm looking at things from across the pond and then some, but I think it's some kind of a reaction -> counter-reaction -> counter-counter-reaction thing.

I don't think it's meant to discredit BLM although it might end up doing that.

Some people genuinely feel outsiders in a field, or might not see it as a real possibility because it feels foreign. Some parts of language and culture might actually maintain that, although (generally speaking) not due to malice by other people. Other parts just are, and don't actually do much of anything.

Some people then want to change that feeling of outsideness, some more than others. Some of the people who personally feel the most strongly about it are the people coming from the backgrounds that aren't traditionally associated with tech. They're often also from ethnic minorities, or women.

Some of those people feel extremely strongly about it.

It gets tied to their other experiences with being at a disadvantage, or of blatant racism.

Others (partially rightly) then want to support it. But some of those people who have experienced disadvantage are really, really angry, and want to attack everything that reminds them of the injustice they've experienced. And because some honestly unrelated things become mentally tied to that, they also become microaggressions, or something. (Microaggressions are probably a real thing, but if you start wanting to catch all of them, you'll also end up catching a lot of false positives. Specificity and sensitivity and all that.)

Then there are people who actually either feel subconsciously threatened by others competing for the same positions, status and authority, or who are actually racists and feel other ethnic groups shouldn't get the same things they have. Those two groups of people aren't the same, although they probably intertwine. And it's actually quite human to feel the former in various degrees. Maybe even the latter, considering how common it is in the world, but it's easier to see that as nefarious.

And then there are people who just don't like unnecessary change. And those who just don't like the feeling of someone else pushing a way of speaking, thinking or acting on them without really good reason. (I think a lot of HN readers fall into that latter category, as do many classical liberals. I certainly do.)

A lot of people just fall into one social group and context out of the above, because humans are herd animals and having a group is massively important to the vast majority of us.

All of that somehow leads to an unholy mess. Actual racists want to push their agenda and attack those whom they see as their political enemies; opposing any agenda that purports to be antiracist seems to play into the hands of racists; some people get caught in the middle because they don't want to support the racists but also don't like the idea that the language they're used to using needs to change, especially if it doesn't seem like a big thing; some of those not-a-big-things appear to be big things to other people, but who can tell who's really right; others get caught in the middle because they're a bit insecure of their own position and are thus disincentivized of advancing other people's positions, yet don't want to associate with the blatant racists either.

Some get caught in the middle because they want things to make sense to them, and "we all need to get behind this because someone somewhere has the emotional need for that" doesn't cut it. Because there are 7 billion emotional needs, and that's if you only count humans.

So the requirement of hypersensitivity (and even blatantly creating problems) makes many people who aren't even racist uncomfortable; the actual racists use this to their advantage, and overreaction by antiracists provides ample attack surface; and in the eyes of those who feel very strongly about antiracism opposing any of their views (including about microaggressions) become something to oppose. Meanwhile, some of the people in the middle actually have mildly racist views, or feel threatened, or just want to maintain more of a status quo because they're, by personality, somewhat conservative people who don't like rapid change. Or they dislike being pushed into something, or out of something (such as use of language). But because some of the people in the middle are actually supportive of mild racism, or uncomfortable of facing the reality of it, attacking the middle also becomes a valid argument.

And because people don't like feeling like being attacked, some of the people in that middle then gravitate towards the right-wing end. Because the racists aren't attacking them; it seems like the strong antiracists are.

You then end up with two polar opposites that reinforce themselves, and each other. And with some people caught in the middle who, for better or for worse reasons, don't really want to side with either.

Sorry if I got carried away. But I've been thinking about this a lot lately.

I honestly don't think the people pushing for language policing in a hypersensitive manner are trying to discredit BLM, and I'm not really sure most of them are necessarily "virtue-signaling" either. Some of them are, but most of them are probably just reacting to something that they either personally find offensive (even though their actual enemy is the real racists, not (most of) those in the middle) or to something their in-group opposes.

It's just a complex social dynamic, not a conspiracy.

Re: Infosec community disagrees with changing 'black hat' term

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sorry, I really do want to try and understand, but I’m just completely lost on how to seriously engage with this argument.

Per my previous comment then, how about 'yellow peril'? Color coding for racist elements has a long and storied history across the world. Nothing exists as simply just a color in many environments because the usage of color matters in context.

I may be misunderstanding the analogy, but I don't get it. "Yellow peril" was developed as an explicit reference to skin color, and I've never seen it used by people who didn't intend that reference. Conversely, I think we'd agree it's pretty silly if someone said that we must rename traffic signals to "gold lights" because "yellow light" isn't simply a color.

Re: Infosec community disagrees with changing 'black hat' term

#64

It's offensive in the same way as Call of Duty: Black Ops is offensive, which is "generally not actually offensive". However, it is possible to derive professional advancement from claiming that it is, so expect to see more of this in tech. Also not offensive: Black Friday, black holes, black beans, black tea, black-eyed peas, black gold (aka oil), Black Mirror, black swans.

I’m not taking a stance on the issue, but this quote from the article illustrates how blacklist vs. whitelist is different than the examples you gave: > “Others pointed to the dualism between black and white as representing evil and good, concepts that have been around since the dawn of civilizations, long before racial divides even existed between humans.” The supporters of the current terminology use this to bolste…

When I think black and white I think night and day and not evil and good.

Re: Infosec community disagrees with changing 'black hat' term

#65

It's offensive in the same way as Call of Duty: Black Ops is offensive, which is "generally not actually offensive". However, it is possible to derive professional advancement from claiming that it is, so expect to see more of this in tech. Also not offensive: Black Friday, black holes, black beans, black tea, black-eyed peas, black gold (aka oil), Black Mirror, black swans.

Thank you, voice of reason!

Re: Infosec community disagrees with changing 'black hat' term

#66
post #21

Also "MITM" (man in the middle), "Whitelist" and "Blacklist", even "Sanity Check". This is all very aligned with a general trend of cheap moralization and virtue signalling that actually achieves nothing but makes as much noise as possible and poison every discussion with identity politics, by seeing prejudice and bigotry everywhere.

> This is all very aligned with a general trend of cheap moralization and virtue signalling that actually achieves nothing but makes as much noise as possible and poison every discussion with identity politics

This is not a side-effect of identity politics. This is its main intention.

If you want to help keep rational discourse alive, you need to reject identity politics at its root.

Reject the concept, reject the argument, reject the discussion.

Re: Infosec community disagrees with changing 'black hat' term

#67
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> actually achieves nothing It's worse than nothing. It sucks up oxygen that could be used elsewhere. Outrage/attention is a finite resource, and the more of it is blown on topics like this, the less is available to spend on things like income inequality, hiring biases, incarceration rates, police brutality, social programs, diversity/representation in media/politics, etc. At this moment in time the Black Lives Matte…

Absolutely. BLM asks to put a stop to police brutality/racism and stupid white people decide to change the phrase "grandfathered" or "you guys" in response. Or to put down entire languages like Spanish because they use gendered nouns. A more tone deaf response would be hard to achieve. Even those of us who have supported the cause against police brutality and racism for years are now losing interest and energy. If th…

> just spreading corona

And causing riots, billions in property damages and innocent civilian lives lost (even before we’re considering the corona).

At this point the BLM movement is a clear net negative for society.

Re: Infosec community disagrees with changing 'black hat' term

#68
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is worthwhile to examine why westerns chose to use the symbolism of black and white hats.

Probably because black has been associated to “death” for millennia (it’s the color of night, which is traditionally dangerous), while white is associated to cleanliness and light. We’re talking Egyptian times, Ancient Greece, etc, when there wasn’t really a concept of “white skin” (more or less everyone in highly-populated European and North-African regions had brown skin, to survive under the sun; very few people e…

> The symbolism is extremely obvious and pre-dating even the “discovery of America”.

Like anti-racists or BLM-activists care about facts.

Re: Infosec community disagrees with changing 'black hat' term

#69
Instead of this cancel culture BS, maybe we dedicate more effort and outrage to real problems—-remember cancer, inequality, poverty, global warming, runaway national debt, defense issues, deforestation, plastic waste (and rain, apparently), clean water shortages, etc. Hey but let’s make sure we rename that default branch to main or remove specific keywords from code bases (none of which has anything to do with race). It’s fine. Those real problems can wait for some day.

Re: Infosec community disagrees with changing 'black hat' term

#70
post #13

It's clear that some of the language we use needed to be changed, the previously used terms for primary and secondary hard drives are an obvious example. It seems to me that the notions related to black and white have broader cultural associations though. Light and dark or day and night have long been associated with good and bad. White similarly has associations with good and innocence hence the use for wedding dres…

> the previously used terms for primary and secondary hard drives are an obvious example.

You mean master and slave? Was that hard?

Don’t be afraid of words. Be afraid of those who wants to silence the words.

Post reply on HN