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Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#71

Post by pmontra »

dyyni wrote: post #67
AmericanChopper wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also the balance that the FIA has never managed to maintain to anybody’s satisfaction. A lot of the issues with F1 stem from the fact that it’s actually two seperate competitions. If you let constructors build the fastest car that they safely can, then two bad things happen. Firstly, the fastest car will win. Secondly, the teams with less money can’t compete. The F1 brand is about having the most technologically…

A budget cap is one solution to keep design regulations to a minimum and ensure that smaller teams can compete. F1 introduced a $145 million budget cap for the 2021 season, going down to $135 million for 2023-25 seasons. Right now the three biggest teams (MB, Ferrari, Red Bull) spend somewhere around half a billion or so per season.

I'd go with something more radical: a 2x5 meters max box, 100 kg of gas for the 300 km race, 600 kg minimum weight, 50 million budget maybe including the drivers (there is a very long line of them) and maybe a max downforce test if it can be made hard to cheat. Then let the teams do whatever they want.

Somebody will optimize for the engine, somebody for the aerodynamics, somebody for the suspensions, somebody for the tires (buy them from whoever they want) etc. I guess very few will spend much on the driver.

At the beginning they'll be slower than the current cars (which are only marginally faster than the v10s of 2004) but year after year they'll improve new areas of the design and get fast again. I expect a lot of technical drama and very different solutions. It's going to be back to the 70x and 80s with today's technology and processes.

Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#73

Post by ethbro »

dyyni wrote: post #21
otherme123 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The balance is probably around 90% the car and 10% the driver. In the years of RB dominance, a subpar driver like Webber almost got the championship. OTOH Alonso lost a decade in Ferrari and McLaren while being, tied with Hamilton, the best driver in the grid. The 10% of what the driver adds to the mix is what makes Hamilton champion instead of Bottas.

Also, a good driver might not be a good team member which might put them in a disadvantage. Räikkönen was considered one of if not the fastest on the grid during his best years but iirc wasn't very good as a team member in the car's development phase which hampered his and his car's performance

Nothing will ever be as great as Räikkönen's press conferences, though.

"Kimi!!! How did you feel the car was today?!"

"Car was good." walks off

Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#74

Post by leokennis »

wiz21c wrote: post #28
otherme123 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The balance is probably around 90% the car and 10% the driver. In the years of RB dominance, a subpar driver like Webber almost got the championship. OTOH Alonso lost a decade in Ferrari and McLaren while being, tied with Hamilton, the best driver in the grid. The 10% of what the driver adds to the mix is what makes Hamilton champion instead of Bottas.

Dunno if it's a valid comparison, but my kid races indoor karting. He's average level, that means he's within 1.5% of the best in race conditions (i.e. on a 40 seconds lap, he's about than 0.7 seconds behind the best on average). And given the time it took to reach that, I'd say that being a competitive pilot may be just 10% of the victory, but those 10% are super tough to reach.

I have occasionally (and very recreationally) raced on track days. I do not know kart racing well, but even in a relatively slow (15 year old BMW) car, it's incredibly scary to race towards a brick wall at ~180 km/h and only brake at the last moment.

So I think that 10% is a lot of skill and dedication, but also a sort of numbing to that fear.

Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#75

Post by rurban »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #32

Watched a lot of F1 in 90s/00s, stopped after 2017 season. Current regulations make it very predictable. Most offending rules are: - limit on testing means that whoever makes the best car after regulations change will win until next regulations change (2010..2013 Red Bull, 2014.. today Mercedes), others have very limited means to catch up - scoring system introduced in late 00s rewards reliability over racing, and gi…

Limiting on testing is just taking away the unique Ferrari advantage. Previously they just took their design out on their private racetrack next to the lab. Now they have to test as all the others: virtually in computer simulations. And for a short time on the track.

It's much more interesting to do the simulations virtually. Some even do the windtunnel testing now virtually. But only the richest.

Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#76

Post by mrslave »

bborud wrote: post #47
wiz21c wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dunno if it's a valid comparison, but my kid races indoor karting. He's average level, that means he's within 1.5% of the best in race conditions (i.e. on a 40 seconds lap, he's about than 0.7 seconds behind the best on average). And given the time it took to reach that, I'd say that being a competitive pilot may be just 10% of the victory, but those 10% are super tough to reach.

I think you are pointing to something very important. The car and team get you 90% of the way. But the last 10% is almost 100% up to the driver.

Reminds me of a Yogi Berra quote:

> Baseball is ninety percent mental and the other half is physical.

Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#78

Post by leokennis »

otherme123 wrote: post #69
wiz21c wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dunno if it's a valid comparison, but my kid races indoor karting. He's average level, that means he's within 1.5% of the best in race conditions (i.e. on a 40 seconds lap, he's about than 0.7 seconds behind the best on average). And given the time it took to reach that, I'd say that being a competitive pilot may be just 10% of the victory, but those 10% are super tough to reach.

Now imagine that the wealthy father of another average level kid is allowed to enter the race with an expensive kart that makes 10% more power, has 10% more grip and overall gives the driver a "free" 1.5 seconds per lap. Suddenly an average driver can crush a top notch driver every time. Because that's F1. There's not a balance driver/car. There are good cars, average cars and poor cars, almost all of them driven by…

So then I would like your prediction on who would become WDC:

* Hamilton/Verstappen in a Williams?

* Antonio Giovinazzi in a Mercedes?

Don't forget the classic "to finish first, you first have to finish"...a drivers skill is not just better reaction time or better peripheral vision, it's also mental calm, not making stupid mistakes on lap 69 of 70, situational awareness etc.

Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#79

Post by ethbro »

pmontra wrote: post #71
dyyni wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A budget cap is one solution to keep design regulations to a minimum and ensure that smaller teams can compete. F1 introduced a $145 million budget cap for the 2021 season, going down to $135 million for 2023-25 seasons. Right now the three biggest teams (MB, Ferrari, Red Bull) spend somewhere around half a billion or so per season.

I'd go with something more radical: a 2x5 meters max box, 100 kg of gas for the 300 km race, 600 kg minimum weight, 50 million budget maybe including the drivers (there is a very long line of them) and maybe a max downforce test if it can be made hard to cheat. Then let the teams do whatever they want. Somebody will optimize for the engine, somebody for the aerodynamics, somebody for the suspensions, somebody for the…

It could definitely be managed better, to optimize for what they seem to be trying to (sport + performance).

Budget caps seems like a cop-out though, as eventually the budgetary rules inherit all the complexity in the current technical rules.

I think some kind of FRAND forced tech licensing / transfer + shared manufacturing would be an interesting solution. Whereby a hyper-optimized solution by a leading team can be licenses (or is outright open sourced) for the next season. And similarly, where all builders have access to a neutral manufacturing facility (a la TSMC).

Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#80

Post by chrisan »

dfgdghdf wrote: post #24
beaker52 wrote: post #2

There are a couple of aspects of Formula 1 that make it very compelling to watch (my opinion of course, take as you will): - Accessible aerodynamics (it's on the road in front of you, not up in the air) - Technological developments (e.g. this year, one of the teams has a steering wheel they pull toward/push away themselves to change the geometry of the front wheels) - Watching high-performing athletes demonstrating t…

This is all true, but personally I find it so boring to actually watch. The cars go around. Maybe they need to improve the way it is filmed and presented?

I still enjoy watching F1, but something the way the cameras were back in the Senna era were just... raw and guttural. You could feel the speed and the closeness of the drive to the track. Perhaps it was because they were imperfect/shook or whatever
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