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Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#41

Post by ColinWright »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #32

Watched a lot of F1 in 90s/00s, stopped after 2017 season. Current regulations make it very predictable. Most offending rules are: - limit on testing means that whoever makes the best car after regulations change will win until next regulations change (2010..2013 Red Bull, 2014.. today Mercedes), others have very limited means to catch up - scoring system introduced in late 00s rewards reliability over racing, and gi…

> Now they just drive home safely.

Some of the on-track incidents yesterday (July 5th) suggest that this is not the whole story, and may not be accurate.

Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#42

Post by AmericanChopper »

embrassingstuff wrote: post #12
beaker52 wrote: post #2

There are a couple of aspects of Formula 1 that make it very compelling to watch (my opinion of course, take as you will): - Accessible aerodynamics (it's on the road in front of you, not up in the air) - Technological developments (e.g. this year, one of the teams has a steering wheel they pull toward/push away themselves to change the geometry of the front wheels) - Watching high-performing athletes demonstrating t…

Do u really feel an average/top driver can strategize during the race? The race engineer has X10 data, X10 mental bandwidth, and X10 domain practice (that's his day job!) There all these radio moments (Hamilton "how r we behind them?" after spinning out in Germany etc) .. which really makes it clear that the driver focus is very local (both spatially and temporally), as it should be!

Everybody has their off moments, but I’d say the top drivers strategize pretty heavily (even if your only counting pit strategy as strategy). Even then I’d say driver called pit strategies have about as much chance of working out as team strategies (which are mostly guess work). The only strategy the driver can’t really contribute to is the mechanical preservation strategy, because they can’t see nearly as well what the condition of their engine is. But even then, that strategy is the same all the time - make the engine and gearbox last the required number of races.

Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#43

Post by doikor »

meditative wrote: post #25
obilgic wrote: post #15

It's only gonna get interesting when Tesla puts a fully autonomous F1 car racing against the drivers.

automated cars would obviously eventually become faster than F1 drivers, it's just there's no interest in it (unfortunately). The biggest interest to most people are the drivers and they strongly dislike driver aids. I'd prefer every driver aid under the sun and have a real engineering battle. I'm obviously in the minority here. Formula E is under very tight budget constraints in order to lower the barrier to entry.…

> drivers and they strongly dislike driver aids

The racers like whatever makes them go faster. When ABS and traction control was allowed everyone was using it. It just made you faster. But the current rules ban them with the goal of trying to make the driver matter more.

One of the sports all time great (Micheal Schumacher) won all of his championships with traction control most likely. The teams used their own computers in the cars then so it was basically impossible to police and thus the ban was lifted in 2002. The ban was put back in place when the onboard computer in the cars was homologated (everyone uses the same computer by McLaren)

Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#44

Post by WalterBright »

dfgdghdf wrote: post #24
beaker52 wrote: post #2

There are a couple of aspects of Formula 1 that make it very compelling to watch (my opinion of course, take as you will): - Accessible aerodynamics (it's on the road in front of you, not up in the air) - Technological developments (e.g. this year, one of the teams has a steering wheel they pull toward/push away themselves to change the geometry of the front wheels) - Watching high-performing athletes demonstrating t…

This is all true, but personally I find it so boring to actually watch. The cars go around. Maybe they need to improve the way it is filmed and presented?

In-car cameras make it a lot more interesting.

Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#45

Post by faichai »

eaurouge wrote: post #39
toyg wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> once a pairing has been made, either the drivers are closely matched, or one or both will be changing teams That's not always the case. Eddie Irvine spent 4 years as n.2 to Schumacher pretty happily, only changing teams because Jordan offered more money. He was pretty spectacular on good days but nowhere as good as The Michael.

Right. The current era is definitely more competitive than past eras. Teams were often cash strapped back then, so sponsorship money trumped driver skill in some teams. Also Ferrari was very much Schumacher’s team. Irvine was his supporting driver much more than a true teammate, unlike what we have these days in most teams, including at Mercedes and Red Bull.

Teams are still cash strapped!

Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#46

Post by obilgic »

doikor wrote: post #43
meditative wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

automated cars would obviously eventually become faster than F1 drivers, it's just there's no interest in it (unfortunately). The biggest interest to most people are the drivers and they strongly dislike driver aids. I'd prefer every driver aid under the sun and have a real engineering battle. I'm obviously in the minority here. Formula E is under very tight budget constraints in order to lower the barrier to entry.…

> drivers and they strongly dislike driver aids The racers like whatever makes them go faster. When ABS and traction control was allowed everyone was using it. It just made you faster. But the current rules ban them with the goal of trying to make the driver matter more. One of the sports all time great (Micheal Schumacher) won all of his championships with traction control most likely. The teams used their own compu…

I think OP meant "viewers dislike"

Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#47

Post by bborud »

wiz21c wrote: post #28
otherme123 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The balance is probably around 90% the car and 10% the driver. In the years of RB dominance, a subpar driver like Webber almost got the championship. OTOH Alonso lost a decade in Ferrari and McLaren while being, tied with Hamilton, the best driver in the grid. The 10% of what the driver adds to the mix is what makes Hamilton champion instead of Bottas.

Dunno if it's a valid comparison, but my kid races indoor karting. He's average level, that means he's within 1.5% of the best in race conditions (i.e. on a 40 seconds lap, he's about than 0.7 seconds behind the best on average). And given the time it took to reach that, I'd say that being a competitive pilot may be just 10% of the victory, but those 10% are super tough to reach.

I think you are pointing to something very important. The car and team get you 90% of the way. But the last 10% is almost 100% up to the driver.

Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#48

Post by WalterBright »

arooaroo wrote: post #29

People who are not normally interested in F1 are finding the Netflix series Drive to Survive a more accessible version to spectate. It's not just highlights in chronological order, but a distillation of the main themes of the season, e.g., certain inter-team battles, intra-team rivalries, fallouts between teams and suppliers, regulations, etc. The behind-the-scenes glimpses are fascinating. I remember (pre-family whe…

I've sometimes thought that computers and radios should be banned from F1 cars, unless they are part of the safety equipment.

Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#49

Post by AmericanChopper »

JoeSmithson wrote: post #5
beaker52 wrote: post #2

There are a couple of aspects of Formula 1 that make it very compelling to watch (my opinion of course, take as you will): - Accessible aerodynamics (it's on the road in front of you, not up in the air) - Technological developments (e.g. this year, one of the teams has a steering wheel they pull toward/push away themselves to change the geometry of the front wheels) - Watching high-performing athletes demonstrating t…

The balance of importance between driver and constructor is quite unique in sport. A sufficiently good car can make an average driver competitive (e.g. Bottas), but also a sufficiently good driver can make an average car competitive (e.g. Schumacher). Plus everyone involved is such a drama merchant (or crook!) that the season often plays out like a soap opera.

It’s also the balance that the FIA has never managed to maintain to anybody’s satisfaction.

A lot of the issues with F1 stem from the fact that it’s actually two seperate competitions. If you let constructors build the fastest car that they safely can, then two bad things happen. Firstly, the fastest car will win. Secondly, the teams with less money can’t compete. The F1 brand is about having the most technologically advanced cars, but really it has to constantly hold the best teams back in order to keep things competitive. That’s why the regulations are so hopelessly complex (this years new regulations have to cover up the holes in last years poor regulating...), and it’s why anything that is truly innovative is nearly always instantly banned.

F1 is constantly swinging between a state of dominant constructors (Mercedes the past 6 years), and being more like a spec series (the new 2021 regs). If F1 wanted to actually live up to its brand, it would let the constructors build mostly whatever they wanted to. But if it did that, it would also have to divvy up the prize money more fairly to keep the lesser teams from going under, which it’s never going to do because of how political it all is.

Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#50

Post by speedgoose »

meditative wrote: post #25
obilgic wrote: post #15

It's only gonna get interesting when Tesla puts a fully autonomous F1 car racing against the drivers.

automated cars would obviously eventually become faster than F1 drivers, it's just there's no interest in it (unfortunately). The biggest interest to most people are the drivers and they strongly dislike driver aids. I'd prefer every driver aid under the sun and have a real engineering battle. I'm obviously in the minority here. Formula E is under very tight budget constraints in order to lower the barrier to entry.…

They already compete on the motor construction.
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