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Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

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Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that they exist today. They leverage their power and connections to remain anonymous and away from public scrutiny.

The Cargill/McMillan family is probably the most famous of these in the US. They’ve kept their company private and have managed to stay under the radar fairly well considering their level of wealth.

And then there are the Koch brothers:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_family

Who've probably got their hands in too many things:

* https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Kochland/Christopher-...

* https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/07/kochland-rev...

* https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/kochland-examin...

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#202

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I’m not sure what you mean exactly by “political economy”? In any case, what is excluded usually from definition of means of production is human capital. Slavery is decidedly not that. It is the ownership and dehumanization of people. There is no choice, no labour market. I don’t see a reason why it’s not a means of production other than “the textbook said so”. — What do you mean? It is a late phenomenon in the Weste…

>I’m not sure what you mean exactly by “political economy”? Political economy is the predecessor to economics, and is (in some places) still alive today as modern/radical political economy. > It is the ownership and dehumanization of people. There is no choice, no labour market. "Human capital" is excluded precisely because it is "living labour" as opposed to "dead labour" (machinery etc.) and can therefore be exploi…

> Political economy is the predecessor to economics, and is (in some places) still alive today as modern/radical political economy.

I know that. What I still don't know, is whether you've meant Adam-Smith-proto-economics or LTV-inspired ideology. Because those things aren't interchangeable.

Not to mention why two schools of thought which are on their own obsolete at this point matter here.

> "Human capital" is excluded precisely because it is "living labour" as opposed to "dead labour" (machinery etc.) and can therefore be exploited to extract more value than what was paid. This is the same principle with both slavery and wage labour - living labour.

What about live stock? What about seed stock? What about IP? What about machinery that was bought under market price?

The only reason I can see why this separation might be important is if we remember that labour and employment affects aggregate demand through wages. Obviously that doesn't apply to slave labour.

> Besides this, twe're talking beside the point...

Glad you agree.

But if we redefine "capitalism" as "historic period" now, we might as well define it as a form of music and compare to Frank Zappa songs...

I mean, if we take the features of society which were dominant the most to define the historic period, we might as well call ourselves primitive humans, since out of our ca. 2 billion years of history, that was the most dominant features of our society.

All of this partitioning is arbitrary and has nothing to do with economics. It is more about setting a political narrative. But that isn't tethered to reality and we might as well be using astrology.

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#203
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would philosophers have a say in this? But point is, that question is far from settled. Especially if you consider the key features being the free market and private property, then capitalism goes far into BCE.

> Why would philosophers have a say in this? Arguably because it's their job to examine the ontology and other features of poilitical philosophy, and formerly political economy. >But point is, that question is far from settled. It's is settled. Read mainstream sociologists, anthropologists and historians on this topic.

It's an economical question. Not philosophical, not political.

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#204

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I don’t think he/she is wrong in saying they all employ the same strategy, where the last two being the only ones with a noble goal. It’s a powerful weapon, and can be dangerous if not used carefully.

I should remind you that a lot of revolutions had a noble goal. Russian Revolution was made by people with an enormous noble goal of freeing the whole world from oppression (and Soviet state has never disavowed World Revolution, future Communism, people's dictatorship, etc.). How it was twisted from the very beginning — even long before revolution itself, see Dostoevsky's “Demons” — is a different story. I think that…

99% agree with you. But as far as World Revolution, it's educational to see what the Stalin's USSR did to Comintern. Especially, German communists.

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#205
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I’m not sure what you mean exactly by “political economy”? Political economy is the predecessor to economics, and is (in some places) still alive today as modern/radical political economy. > It is the ownership and dehumanization of people. There is no choice, no labour market. "Human capital" is excluded precisely because it is "living labour" as opposed to "dead labour" (machinery etc.) and can therefore be exploi…

> Political economy is the predecessor to economics, and is (in some places) still alive today as modern/radical political economy. I know that. What I still don't know, is whether you've meant Adam-Smith-proto-economics or LTV-inspired ideology. Because those things aren't interchangeable. Not to mention why two schools of thought which are on their own obsolete at this point matter here. > "Human capital" is exclud…

>Not to mention why two schools of thought which are on their own obsolete at this point matter here.

They're alive enough for heterodox economists and philosophers of economics, and I think that's quite important, in the same way nobody would like Google Chrome to be the only browser.

>What about live stock? What about seed stock? What about IP? What about machinery that was bought under market price?

These are complications (especially with regard to IP), but in the long run, things like buying machinery under the market price tend to even out, and there is no change in the economy as a whole, in which the capitalist's gain is the same as the machine vendor's loss. It doesn't explain the creation of new value.

>But if we redefine "capitalism" as "historic period" now, we might as well define it as a form of music and compare to Frank Zappa songs...

My point is that it's not a redefinition, that's literally the way it's defined by mainstream economists and everyone concerned in its study. It is specifically historical, not merely a set of abstract principles. Marx thought the same about communism, for that matter.

It has everything to do with economics - not only are trends and terms in economics defined and set by those looking to set a particular political narrative (accidentally or not), but political narratives are important. It's no less of a political narrative to say that ancient Roman society was "capitalist" to pull the favorite trick of the old political economists and indeed many of the neoclassicals - to convince us that capitalism really is a kind of human nature. You don't need a Marxist to claim otherwise, since there's lots of research on ancient society and their modes of production.

I think that an abstract ahistorical definition of capitalism is even less tied to reality than the anthropologist's one.

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#206

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"At the time, I was writing a book about the politics of drug prohibition. I started to ask Ehrlichman a series of earnest, wonky questions that he impatiently waved away. "You want to know what this was really all about?" he asked with the bluntness of a man who, after public disgrace and a stretch in federal prison, had little left to protect. "The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had t…

Yes, this is exactly that hearsay. Not public record, but unauthorized quote published years after Ehrlichman's death. The authenticity of the quote is often disputed.

What about all this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_CIA_drug_traffi...

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#207
post #163

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Women and men have significant biological differences, and from my understanding of our evolution, they've had these significant differences for a much longer time that capitalism has existed. Evolution suggests that these biological differences result from differences in selection criteria, which supports the idea that men and women have served different roles over the majority of human existence. Very high mortalit…

There’s little uniformity in women’s social and economic roles across the entire spectrum of human civilization, cultures, and history. Women have been equal members of communal tribes, religious and political leaders, agricultural and industrial laborers, fully subjugated and fully autonomous. Any attempt to place the diversity of these experiences into narrow, erroneous appeals to nature is so reductive as to be al…

I love that you're being downvoted for saying something so utterly non-controversial. It's almost as if the fact that there were large matriarchal societies inhabiting America for centuries (arguably millenia) before the first European man set foot on the continent has never been taught to the average HN reader..

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#208

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Why would "reactionaries", which is a term very popular among Marxist types to describe those opposed to radical left causes, try to paint Cancel Culture in negative terms, if it did not have a heavy ideological slant? >>The use of this term is an effort to distract from the fact that the vast majority of the celebrities who have been “cancelled” have actually victimized others or in other ways taken actions that wer…

The term reactionary dates to the French Revolution. You imputing Marxism to any skepticism of the existence of “Cancel Culture” is a typical straw man; I am no Marxist. The only relevant conspiracy theory I’m aware of is the one being advanced by those pushing the “Cancel Culture” narrative. All it takes is a few minutes watching Tucker Carlson or his comrades in arms to hear them lay out their specious case that th…

>>The term reactionary dates to the French Revolution

Yes, but associated mostly with Marxism. And the French Revolution, with its equality-inspired fanaticism, was the ideological forebearer of Marxist revolutions.

There are many similarities between the French Revolution and the communism inspired Cultural Revolution in China, for example.

>>All it takes is a few minutes watching Tucker Carlson or his comrades in arms to hear them lay out their specious case that there is a unified effort to unfairly cancel innocent celebrities.

I don't follow Tucker Carlson, so I'm not familiar with his narratives. But Cancel Culture refers to a culture, not a conspiracy, and clearly exists.

>>And it is nearly always celebrities. It amuses me that the right wing narrative at the present moment includes a tabloid-like fixation on the fate of anyone halfway famous

It's any one with influence, or in a position of power really. Your fixation on these peripheral points, like who Cancel Culture is affecting, and the fact that Conservatives care about the fate of celebrities, when the debate is about whether Cancel Culture exists, is petty.

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s little uniformity in women’s social and economic roles across the entire spectrum of human civilization, cultures, and history. Women have been equal members of communal tribes, religious and political leaders, agricultural and industrial laborers, fully subjugated and fully autonomous. Any attempt to place the diversity of these experiences into narrow, erroneous appeals to nature is so reductive as to be al…

I love that you're being downvoted for saying something so utterly non-controversial. It's almost as if the fact that there were large matriarchal societies inhabiting America for centuries (arguably millenia) before the first European man set foot on the continent has never been taught to the average HN reader..

"I know of many exceptions to your evolutionary argument, which makes it entirely worthless"

It's not controversial, but it's missing the point. Nobody is arguing that ever single woman in our history preceding capitalism had to prioritize child care over leadership or labor.

If you're talking about the role of women over time, you're talking about how it applies to averages. It'd be impossible to discuss this with any sort of scale if you had to reconcile every generality with it's various exceptions.

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#210
post #81

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How strange that most recent pandemics mainly come from the same place. Surely that's only pure coincidence.

It's definitely not coincidence, because they don't come from the same place. Unless you're classifying Mexico (swine flu), China (SARS & Covid), DR Congo (Ebola) and Saudi Arabia (MERS) as the same place

Just posting this for your reference: https://www.who.int/csr/don/archive/country/chn/en/
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