Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism • Hacker News Board

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#161

Post by ororo9 » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 5:41 PM UTC

arvinsim wrote: post #63

vmception wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those articles are more interesting than OP's article. When I research a lot of wealthy families I frequently find their level of comfort not possible to replicate because it is something considered impropriety today. Taking advantage of an imbalance in the socioeconomic order that was promptly fixed as soon as anybody noticed.

I believe that they exist today. They leverage their power and connections to remain anonymous and away from public scrutiny.

They definitely do, and LEO knows. The schemes and cons, deflection... they’ve not changed.

Think about, this is only 3-4 generations back. What neuroscience is revealing about shared/inherited brain structures and limbic->cortex system algorithms, the habits of agency haven’t had that long to fade out, especially as we clung to tribal communities and abusive nuclear family silos.

But those families control LEO, so their mandate is to fight DVD player theft and smoking pot.

They again demonize our individual minor failings to control the greater human narrative, gift trillions to their buds while we fight over TP, face masks, and flat or skeuomorphic UI day to day. Doing the real important social work!

Western culture hasn’t really evolved it’s emotional organization habits all that much until recent times, say the last 20 years.

Now that the first generations raised primarily on science and a much less overt, yet still present, racism are coming into power, we’ll see.

Until the last generation though, most people in power were raised in “story mode”. “Be a godheaded manipulator, manage the masses effort and agency, for of course they’re idiots for not having your job of rich guy! If I can do it anyone can! Why they aren’t is their free will!”

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#162

Post by haukur » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 5:43 PM UTC

paulgerhardt wrote: post #2

One thing that becomes immediately apparent when visiting the medieval witchcraft museum in Iceland[1] was how strategic the use of Witchcraft accusations were by the middling elite. One cunning foreign family with ties to occupying Denmark was able to secure land hold rights for nearly an entire peninsula from local Icelanders on the northwest through the strategic use of witchcraft accusations. During this period o…

Do you have any sources relating to the foreign family you mention, and of them securing landholding rights? Based on what I've found, the man that was burned wasn't rich (his family does appear to have become moderately well off by the time's standards at a later date, however).

I haven't found any mention of foreigners. The lawyer in the matter was Icelandic.

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#163

Post by jonfw » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 5:51 PM UTC

claudeganon wrote: post #4

paulgerhardt wrote: post #2

One thing that becomes immediately apparent when visiting the medieval witchcraft museum in Iceland[1] was how strategic the use of Witchcraft accusations were by the middling elite. One cunning foreign family with ties to occupying Denmark was able to secure land hold rights for nearly an entire peninsula from local Icelanders on the northwest through the strategic use of witchcraft accusations. During this period o…

This is essentially the thesis of Silvia Federici’s tremendous book, “Caliban and the Witch.” Witch hunts were pursued to reorganize familial, gender, and labor relations to suit the needs of an emergent Capitalism: >For serfs, who tilled the land in exchange for a share of its crops, home was work, and vice versa; men and women grew the potatoes together. But in capitalism, waged laborers have to work outside the ho…

Women and men have significant biological differences, and from my understanding of our evolution, they've had these significant differences for a much longer time that capitalism has existed. Evolution suggests that these biological differences result from differences in selection criteria, which supports the idea that men and women have served different roles over the majority of human existence.

Very high mortality rates associated with child birth meant that ability to birth and care for children used to be a highly selective trait. It's modern medicine that has made child birth and caring for children a much easier and safer endeavor, and allowed women to prioritize other roles in their life.

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#164

Post by kstenerud » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 5:58 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #154

kstenerud wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I mean by "moral shift" is a rapid change (as in over the course of months rather than decades) in what society considers morally correct and acceptable. The dynamics of #metoo and BLM are different in that they are addressing longstanding attitudes and behaviors contributing to oppression or harassment of a minority group (I use the term "minority" very liberally considering that women make up 50% of the popula…

Again, the "poster" incidents complained about under BLM and #metoo were already illegal , at least per the written law, which is why e.g. Bill Cosby went to prison. It was never legal for him to sexually assault his victims. It was just "de facto" legal because of the difficulty in prosecuting.

> Again,

Again? What is being repeated?

> incidents complained about under BLM and #metoo were already illegal

Yes, which is why I said "weakly enforced laws".

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#165

Post by claudeganon » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 6:10 PM UTC

jonfw wrote: post #163

claudeganon wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is essentially the thesis of Silvia Federici’s tremendous book, “Caliban and the Witch.” Witch hunts were pursued to reorganize familial, gender, and labor relations to suit the needs of an emergent Capitalism: >For serfs, who tilled the land in exchange for a share of its crops, home was work, and vice versa; men and women grew the potatoes together. But in capitalism, waged laborers have to work outside the ho…

Women and men have significant biological differences, and from my understanding of our evolution, they've had these significant differences for a much longer time that capitalism has existed. Evolution suggests that these biological differences result from differences in selection criteria, which supports the idea that men and women have served different roles over the majority of human existence. Very high mortalit…

There’s little uniformity in women’s social and economic roles across the entire spectrum of human civilization, cultures, and history. Women have been equal members of communal tribes, religious and political leaders, agricultural and industrial laborers, fully subjugated and fully autonomous. Any attempt to place the diversity of these experiences into narrow, erroneous appeals to nature is so reductive as to be almost meaningless.

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#166

Post by TeaDrunk » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 6:15 PM UTC

runawaybottle wrote: post #152

TeaDrunk wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There was a recent case of a Karen receiving mob justice to the point people began harassing the law firm her husband runs (granted she also works there), affecting their livelihood. We don’t want to get to a point in society where your character flaws destroy your life." To be clear, this was after it was filmed that the couple was pointing guns at peaceful protestors who were protesting on the street. The woman in…

I should have linked the event I was talking about, you are thinking about a different event: https://nypost.com/2020/06/09/tamara-harrians-husband-blames... What she did was indefensible, but her husband and his business is also having to reconcile this. I believe Al Franken took a juvenile photo of a reporter friend. I don’t think he was a senator at the time, I could be wrong. I think we will enter ‘full blinders…

There's no guillotine. Aziz Ansari's career is totally fine. The statute of limitations on rape and other sexual assault ranges from 3 to 30 years. It seems completely reasonable to me that Al Franken should continue to have consequences on whose lives he harmed via sexual assault years after doing it. The effects of trauma last a lifetime. I don't understand why we should be sympathetic to one man having his life ruined for credibly also ruining the lives of multiple others.

Regarding the Tamara Harrians situation I don't know anything about it, could you link to another media besides NYPost?

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#167

Post by krapp » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 6:33 PM UTC

flowport wrote: post #159

krapp wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm struck by how the description of witch conventions matches the description of "elite pedovores" that the Qanon conspiracy people promote: Both the medieval fear of witches and the modern fear of "Hollywood elites" have their roots in anti-semitism. There's a reason witches were often portrayed with giant hook noses, after all. Judaism has often been negatively correlated with occult elitism, academia (see the a…

By calling people suspicious of powerful individuals anti-semitic you are protecting those powerful individuals in a shroud of identity politics despite evidence and survivor testimony - while simultaneously lowering the reputation of an entire religion. Also the Hillary Clinton conspiracy theory [0][1] is not a modern retelling - she's not even Jewish. I'm not sure what your point is... [0]: https://wikileaks.org/po…

>By calling people suspicious of powerful individuals anti-semitic you are protecting those powerful individuals in a shroud of identity politics despite evidence and survivor testimony - while simultaneously lowering the reputation of an entire religion.

I'm doing no such thing. I'm referring to people who believe in the Pizzagate/QAnon conspiracy theory - these are not merely people who are "suspicious of powerful individuals." Plenty of people are suspicious of powerful individuals who don't buy into that nonsense.

They don't need to be antisemitic per se to buy into a conspiracy theory that is based on antisemitism. Many people who believe in cultural marxism likely aren't aware of the origins of that term either, but it remains the fact that antisemitism is the thematic root for fears of neo-marxist influence over academia. The association of New York and Hollywood with Jews leads to terms like "New York Liberal" and "Hollywood elite" becoming anti-semitic dogwhistles among the alt-right, while seeming perfectly benign in context. These things are so deeply baked into our politics and pop-culture that many people simply can't see the ingredients, but they're still there.

And as far as lowering the reputation of a particular religion, in this specific case, blame that on the communities that came up with these conspiracy theories to begin with, and that turned anti-semitism into a pop culture meme, and whose dialogue is replete with it.

>Also the Hillary Clinton conspiracy theory [0][1] is not a modern retelling - she's not even Jewish. I'm not sure what your point is...

You're being purposely obtuse. Hillary Clinton's actual religion doesn't matter - they draw from the same archetypes and cultural associations.

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#168

Post by unixbeard1337 » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 6:41 PM UTC

_glsb wrote: post #150

claudiawerner wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s seems a rather peculiar definition of capitalism, if it emerged so late. It's really not; historians, anthropologists, sociologists, and philosophers generally point to a few key features of capitalism, and can date it quite well. Federici draws from that argument.

Why would philosophers have a say in this? But point is, that question is far from settled. Especially if you consider the key features being the free market and private property, then capitalism goes far into BCE.

The key feature of capitalism is the economy is defined by capital, i.e. money that makes money, preferably at scale. That didn't exist in any sustained, important way until the early modern period in Europe.

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#169

Post by runawaybottle » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 6:43 PM UTC

TeaDrunk wrote: post #166

runawaybottle wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should have linked the event I was talking about, you are thinking about a different event: https://nypost.com/2020/06/09/tamara-harrians-husband-blames... What she did was indefensible, but her husband and his business is also having to reconcile this. I believe Al Franken took a juvenile photo of a reporter friend. I don’t think he was a senator at the time, I could be wrong. I think we will enter ‘full blinders…

There's no guillotine. Aziz Ansari's career is totally fine. The statute of limitations on rape and other sexual assault ranges from 3 to 30 years. It seems completely reasonable to me that Al Franken should continue to have consequences on whose lives he harmed via sexual assault years after doing it. The effects of trauma last a lifetime. I don't understand why we should be sympathetic to one man having his life ru…

30 seconds of googling can get you the Tamara Harrrians link.

Look, patterns are important. The same way we failed in jailing people for modest drug possession, is the same way we are going to fail in measuring reciprocity, or more clearly, exact legal justice on sexual harassment, racial discrimination.

I’m interested in fixing patterns.

I’m not going to die on the Al Franken hill. Frat boy behavior in professional context is unacceptable, it will get you over time. In his particular case, I didn’t see any escalation into rape or abuse of power (fuck me or you won’t get this job or promotion - Harvey Weinstein).

We will be accurate in our words, accusation, and judgement, henceforth. We will cut cleanly and carefully, no more chainsaws, we will visit all crime sites, and assess. No more games.

It’s not reasonable to me for someone to suffer outsized social justice beyond the price paid at the moment of sentencing. You take someone like Louis CK, he paid the public shame, and career loss (financial loss). If the transgressions were beyond, such as underage sex (for example), I expect the law to quantify the retribution. Beyond that, I expect him to pay nothing more on a social level.

Name your price, I guess, and nothing more. Let it be paid, and move on. We are not gods that dole out eternal shame.

Re: Invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was met with skepticism

#170

Post by jevgeni » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 6:59 PM UTC

unixbeard1337 wrote: post #168

_glsb wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would philosophers have a say in this? But point is, that question is far from settled. Especially if you consider the key features being the free market and private property, then capitalism goes far into BCE.

The key feature of capitalism is the economy is defined by capital, i.e. money that makes money, preferably at scale. That didn't exist in any sustained, important way until the early modern period in Europe.

The Roman Empire had a pretty thriving and developed usury economy, so I'm not sure why you think it's a modern thing.

Also, just FYI: the term "capital" as used by economists doesn't mean money. It means ownership of means of production.