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The Fourth of July

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Re: The Fourth of July

#241

Post by jrmg »

thinkingemote wrote: post #210
jariel wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Colin Kaepernick Tweeted today that 'July 4th is a Celebration of White Supremacy'. This is an existential attack on the nation by a popular figure defended and support by most of the press and major international corporations. I don't have the reference, but yesterday, in response to an arguably racist Tweet about a white person doing something within the range of normal, but being interpreted as negative, the top T…

The terms are getting diluted to meaninglessness. For many, just recently "White Supremacy" now equates to "Western Supremacy" which is left to the readers imagination. I suspect that, for example, advocating for democracy, defending the idea of innocent until proven guilty, criticism of repressive regimes, promoting free enterprise or espousing about the sanctity of the individual, or perhaps just Christianity could…

You are appearing as weirdly absolutist as you perceive those you are railing against to be.

Re: The Fourth of July

#242

Post by rayiner »

tptacek wrote: post #155
rayiner wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a serious attempt to cancel America, that goes beyond holding America responsible for its past wrongs. Someone posted a link to this tweet elsewhere in this thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/arlenparsa/status/116818940954980... I think this is not an uncommon opinion and it’s becoming more and more mainstream. And that sort of thinking is an attempt to cancel America. It’s not just saying that America has d…

Can you see how a reasonable person might read this as catastrophizing? The tweet you linked to is pretty banal, and appears factual. I'm having trouble even connecting the dots from "many of the founders were slaveowners" to "let's cancel America". The nuns taught me the same thing in 1980s Catholic grammar school.

It would be a perfectly fine observation if that was all. But it goes further and says that “the next time someone says we can’t question their judgment on guns or whatever, show them this image.” That logic—or lack thereof, it’s an ad hominem—can be used to put all of our founding principles on the chopping block. It’s an attempt to delegitimize the animating principles of our country.

Re: The Fourth of July

#243

Post by jessaustin »

systemvoltage wrote: post #228
tathougies wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Signs saying 'now leaving the USA' are not saying america has failed to live up to its ideals. It's saying... we don't want to be part of America anymore. That's fine, I'm not knocking you, but this is just revisionism. I don't reject criticism as unpatriotic. I was made aware of no-knock warrants from Ms Taylor's unfortunate death, and I am against them. I am in favor of most police reform. I am not in favor of the…

We now have 500 black militia marching with weapons in Georgia: https://amp.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/hlciwl/a_bl... And people are supporting this. We should condemn all forms of violence from both sides - white supremists and the people who counter them with more violence. It’s unbelievable how we allow this on our social media platforms and yet we have a policy for inciting violence. There is a race war…

[downvoted for boogaloo horseshit]

Re: The Fourth of July

#244

Post by acdha »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #122
acdha wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re upset that he focused on the ones who were oppressed rather than the ones who were oppressing? Many Black people have white ancestors but ask how much of that was really consensual and how those children were treated.

> Many Black people have white ancestors but ask how much of that was really consensual Doesn't this imply a problem with the whole "sins of the father" thing? Otherwise all of those people would have to be condemned as the offspring of a rapist.

Those are separate concepts: we should not condemn children for their parent’s crimes but that doesn’t mean that we should forget that those crimes happened.

In this case it’s especially important because those children were treated very differently from their siblings: a slave owner’s fully white children had full status in society and lived in relative luxury but those borne by slaves inherited their mother’s status. Apologists try to claim that some relationships were consensual but it’s hard to reconcile that with the treatment of any resulting children.

Re: The Fourth of July

#245

Post by noworriesnate »

charlescearl wrote: post #226
weiming wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What me and my family talked about today is that, as immigrants, we are so sad how much the "native born" people of the US hate their own country. They seem to never waste an opportunity to remind others of their disdain and it is more and more visible these days e.g. in big news media or on Twitter. Makes me sad and I hope this can change.

If you fail to understand how so many Indigenous and Black people of this country view it with such contempt, I would recommend a few reads. But first I would ask you to consider that whatever greatness it can claim lies not in it’s continued founding myths, but in the many unheralded acts of sacrifice and resistance that so many of it’s marginalized citizens made and continue to make down to this very minute. James…

Black lives do matter, but BLM the organization gets a lot of flak because they're unfortunately hijacking the concern of black lives with a Marxist political agenda. Here's one of the founders discussing this in an interview about BLM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCghDx5qN4s&t=423s

It's sad to me that we can't have a conversation about police brutality without having Marxists inject themselves into the conversation and harness it for a political agenda that is so violent and manipulative. I care very much about the sanctity of all lives, but I can't discuss black lives without having to explain that I don't support Marxists. That is messed up.

Re: The Fourth of July

#246

Post by barry-cotter »

IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #215
barry-cotter wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US kept its promise to Europeans, even those not then considered white No Europeans were ever not considered white under US law. Blacks, Native Americans and Asians have all been othered racially under US law. All Europeans have always been considered white. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_whiteness_in_th...

The article isn’t quite as clear on that. Jews were classified as non-white at least for a while and in the census. Italians also faced discrimination, although not by law. Then, obviously, there are British citizens ich Indian roots, and Belgians born in Kongo. Not sure how they fit into this debate.

No Jew or Italian was ever non-white under US law. Racism and religious and ethnic prejudice was there in spades but

> No Europeans were ever not considered white under US law.

If you have any citations for Jews being considered non-white as opposed to the bad kind of white like the Irish I’d be interested to see it.

Re: The Fourth of July

#247

Post by burgerboy »

wincy wrote: post #237
charlescearl wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you fail to understand how so many Indigenous and Black people of this country view it with such contempt, I would recommend a few reads. But first I would ask you to consider that whatever greatness it can claim lies not in it’s continued founding myths, but in the many unheralded acts of sacrifice and resistance that so many of it’s marginalized citizens made and continue to make down to this very minute. James…

Who isn’t embracing it? Every person I know on LinkedIn has made some sort of statement, including a few high level managers I went to school with and could call out because they say they’re an “ally” and lived in a “diverse” neighborhood when really they lived in the rich subdivision and went to private school as the neighborhood became “lower class”. But I don’t really know what putting an old classmate on blast on…

BLM is a terrorist organization

Re: The Fourth of July

#248

Post by rayiner »

charlescearl wrote: post #226
weiming wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What me and my family talked about today is that, as immigrants, we are so sad how much the "native born" people of the US hate their own country. They seem to never waste an opportunity to remind others of their disdain and it is more and more visible these days e.g. in big news media or on Twitter. Makes me sad and I hope this can change.

If you fail to understand how so many Indigenous and Black people of this country view it with such contempt, I would recommend a few reads. But first I would ask you to consider that whatever greatness it can claim lies not in it’s continued founding myths, but in the many unheralded acts of sacrifice and resistance that so many of it’s marginalized citizens made and continue to make down to this very minute. James…

> I would ask you to consider that whatever greatness it can claim lies not in it’s continued founding myths, but in the many unheralded acts of sacrifice and resistance that so many of it’s marginalized citizens made and continue to make down to this very minute.

Did you mean to make this an either or thing? I’m a supporter of BLM and have long been a supporter of criminal justice reform. But I also think a lot of America's “greatness” rests on the founders’ creation of a Republic with limited government, separation of powers, free speech, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly, an armed citizenry, due process, etc.

People shouldn’t take those things for granted, because those were also achievements, not some inevitable, universal principles. I come from a country that has ideas like freedom of religion and due process embedded in its constitution. We lifted these ideas from the US Constitution and the magna carts because they are foreign to us. For example, according to the dominant religion in our country, people of other religions should not enjoy equal status. Likewise, freedom of speech is a totally foreign concept imported from the west.

Re: The Fourth of July

#249

Post by IfOnlyYouKnew »

barry-cotter wrote: post #246
IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article isn’t quite as clear on that. Jews were classified as non-white at least for a while and in the census. Italians also faced discrimination, although not by law. Then, obviously, there are British citizens ich Indian roots, and Belgians born in Kongo. Not sure how they fit into this debate.

No Jew or Italian was ever non-white under US law. Racism and religious and ethnic prejudice was there in spades but > No Europeans were ever not considered white under US law. If you have any citations for Jews being considered non-white as opposed to the bad kind of white like the Irish I’d be interested to see it.

That's what the linked wikipedia article says. ("for census purposes", admittedly. But that's one aspect of law)

Re: The Fourth of July

#250

Post by rayiner »

MagnumOpus wrote: post #166
rayiner wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have fewer Covid deaths per capita than four of the five biggest countries in the EU. Do you think people in France or Spain are “ashamed” of their country’s handling of the outbreak?

That is incorrect (Belgium is not one of the biggest EU countries nor is Sweden). But even if it were true, wouldn't you want to aspire to something greater than being 7th going on 6th in the world out of 200 countries in terms of deaths per capita? This thread seems to have too many examples of effusivelt lauding the US for being marginally better than whichever repulsive place that is worst in the world at a partic…

We are ahead of France, Italy, Spain, and the UK. These are not “repulsive places” that are the worst in the world on a metric—they’re some of the richest and most developed countries in the world, and account for half the population of the EU.
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