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The Fourth of July

popehat.com

201–210 of 324 posts

Re: The Fourth of July

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The interesting thing is that despite what America did to these Filipino soldiers, they still chose to be American and sacrificed the majority of their life to do so. American immigration really is the ultimate test of loyalty. Makes you wonder how many natural-born Americans would still choose to be American if they had to go through the immigration experience first. Now that's an idea. People aren't born American c…

> American immigration really is the ultimate test of loyalty. Frankly, more and more people are starting to wake up to the fact that it's a bullshit test. Partly because immigration really doesn't have to be all that, and partly because of the global...decline of the United States' image since the turn of the century. When I was a kid moving to the US was the goal, now only a handful of people I know have it at the…

>decline of the United States' image since the turn of the century.

That seems to be almost universally accepted among American intelligentsia. But as a guy from outside of US, I dare to say it's false, and also built on a false premise. USA as a culture, or as a political power was never especially popular, except for a few particular places. But as an economuc destination it has been since at least the beginning of XX century, and continues to be so. In Russia it is for example a recognized phenomenon - openly anti-US people who would take any opportunity to move across the ocean, and settle there for economic opportunities, simultaneously writing blogs in Russian making fun of the States, and praising mother-Russia from distance. Obviously, for them "image" was never cool, but they are willing to relocate anyway. I'm sure the same exists everywhere. EU, and Canada are popular too, but much less so, and at least in non-EU Eastern Europe + Russia economic migration to the European Union prevails simply because it's cheaper, and practically easier.

Re: The Fourth of July

#202

A bit sentimental, but on holidays we can accept that. The bigger problem with this historical account is that it is incomplete. We Americans like to pretend that this story begins with WWII, when the evil Empire of Japan invaded those bucolic isles of the Philippines, whose brave residents were inspired by MacArthur to rise up against colonialism. In reality, this history began in 1898. Americans pretended to ally w…

The interesting thing is that despite what America did to these Filipino soldiers, they still chose to be American and sacrificed the majority of their life to do so. American immigration really is the ultimate test of loyalty. Makes you wonder how many natural-born Americans would still choose to be American if they had to go through the immigration experience first. Now that's an idea. People aren't born American c…

adding racial purity to the test for citizenship in 5...4....3..

Re: The Fourth of July

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always reflect on this right here when the subject comes up. I first read Starship Troopers as a high schooler in 1999. It impacted me greatly and I took what I wanted to from the book thinking it made me wiser. Upon reflection now 20 years later I think the book is a strong warning against incentivizing civic duty. A strong sense of civic duty and a respect for law must be value enough without reward for a democra…

Heinlein was serious about the proposal.

Yep. It was written in a fit of patriotic enthusiasm for the Cold War, and Heinlein was still offering defences of the political system two decades later after his own politics had moved on.

I do think there's merit in reading books that were utterly serious about their ideas as satirising them though. The conquistador heirs, oil barons and philosopher pirates in Atlas Shrugged make so much more sense as parody of how the 'self-made man' tends to accumulate wealth than in a parable about the ills of not enough capitalism

Re: The Fourth of July

#204
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> American immigration really is the ultimate test of loyalty. Frankly, more and more people are starting to wake up to the fact that it's a bullshit test. Partly because immigration really doesn't have to be all that, and partly because of the global...decline of the United States' image since the turn of the century. When I was a kid moving to the US was the goal, now only a handful of people I know have it at the…

Canada is great. It’s virtually indistinguishable from America for the typical person. I don’t know where you’re from, but as a Bangladeshi immigrant to the US, but I wouldn’t emigrate to the EU. 76% of Americans say that a naturalized citizen is a “real American” and just 13% disagree: https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/... . In France it’s 55-28. In Italy it’s 41-36. There is no place in th…

Kinda funny - the part of the world that Bangladesh is in is completely racist and has no qualms about it at all. SE Asian countries define themselves by their ethnicity, proudly.

Talking to a Cambodian about race, from a European perspective, is disturbing. Translate some of the terms and you could be listening to a nazi.

Re: The Fourth of July

#205
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> American immigration really is the ultimate test of loyalty. Frankly, more and more people are starting to wake up to the fact that it's a bullshit test. Partly because immigration really doesn't have to be all that, and partly because of the global...decline of the United States' image since the turn of the century. When I was a kid moving to the US was the goal, now only a handful of people I know have it at the…

Canada is great. It’s virtually indistinguishable from America for the typical person. I don’t know where you’re from, but as a Bangladeshi immigrant to the US, but I wouldn’t emigrate to the EU. 76% of Americans say that a naturalized citizen is a “real American” and just 13% disagree: https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/... . In France it’s 55-28. In Italy it’s 41-36. There is no place in th…

While the data you present are interesting, and I can see how they could be a factor for an immigrant to choose America, I don't think they correlate with welcomeness to immigrants as much as you imply.

In the EU, countries have a relatively strong ethnic identity, with differentiated languages and cultures (some of which are perceived as endangered, in particular by American influence), while America is a melting pot and its culture is less differentiated basically because they have exported it to the globe.

A Spanish person could think that if you don't speak perfect Spanish, eat and cook Spanish food, have lunch past 2 PM, frequent bars, stay out until late, talk loudly and eat jamón serrano, you are not a "real Spaniard", because you are not like them (I'm using hyperbole to get the point through, of course not everyone in Spain does all that, but I hope you get the idea). But does this mean that they won't socialize with you, consider you for dating, or give you a job? Of course there are racists and xenophobes anywhere, but in general, i think the answer is not at all. Many won't consider you a "real Spaniard" -not me, I would say yes to that poll, but many wouldn't- but they will be happy welcoming you, and consider that the cultural differences are a good thing as they can learn from you.

On the other hand, in the US most people will consider you to be a "real American" because in America ethnicities and cultures are much more mixed, so it wouldn't make sense at all to think that you need to have a certain culture or customs to be American. But what's that good for in practice? Probably the cops that kill black people arbitrarily consider them to be Americans (it would be hard to argue otherwise when they have lived in the US for generations), they still hate them and shoot them. I have friends in cities like Baltimore that tell me about totally segregated neighborhoods, what does it matter that people consider their fellow countryman of different races to be American if they don't mingle with them? And that's without even talking about a president who fits more into your own words "right-wing nationalist" than almost any EU president, with an erratic immigration policy that scraps visa programs on a whim, something that I've never seen in Europe.

My feeling is that the reasons for many emigrants throughout the world to choose America are more sentimental (based on the inercia of the US's reputation, romantic ideals in movies, and general hype) than rational. I have seen this live often. I have seen Iranian candidates reject a job offer here to go to America because you know, it's America, to earn much less, have a worse standard of living and be travel banned on a whim of the president a few months after taking the job...

That said, don't get me wrong, I wish you and all the people who emigrate to America the best. It has worked fine for many people and will keep doing so. I just think it's overrated, and other destinations (not just the EU) would work as well for most people. To each their own, though.

Re: The Fourth of July

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The occupation both gave the german language a word: "Amokläufer", and caused the US army to switch from .38 to .45 caliber sidearms.

Do you have a source on the relation of “Amokläufer” to the Spanish-American war? All the sources I can find claim it originates from Malay/Indonesian culture.

You're right, now that I look into it there doesn't seem to be anything more than circumstantial happenstance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine–American_War

https://www.dwds.de/wb/Amok "amok ‘rasend, wütend, verzweifelt (im Kampf)’, im 19. Jh. vor allem in Lexika bezeugt, im 20. Jh. auch häufiger in literarischen Werken. Ein Frühbeleg findet sich (um 1660) in einer Reisebeschreibung („Amoc welches so viel ist als courage, oder schlag todt“). Amoklauf m. Amokläufer m. (Anfang 20. Jh.)." vgl die Wortverlaufskurve ab 1600.

Checking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars:_1800–1899 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars:_1900–1944 reveals the Semantan War, the Mat Sellah Rebellion, the South Sulawesi expedition, the 1906 and 1908 Dutch Interventions in Bali, and various too-small-for-wikipedia Dutch-Indonesian actions as possible other popularisers in the 1890-1910 period.

Re: The Fourth of July

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> gerrymandered election districts It's hard to call gerrymandering "racist" when there isn't inherently any right way to draw district lines and then you consider the implications of what the opponents of existing districts call the "wrong" way. The way gerrymandering works is that you start off with a town with 1000 black Democrats, 1000 white Democrats and 2000 white Republicans, and you have to draw four district…

Despite, nit because of the way US elections work. Limited number of poling places, especially in poor neighborhoods, affecting people of colour more because of past zoning laws? Check. Elections held on workdays, making it harder for poorer people, again more often people of colour, to vote because they have to take a day of? Check. Mail in ballots being very hard to come by, see above? Check. An electoral college a…

> Compared to any other western style democracy, and the differences become clear.

And yet still can't be seen to be having a major effect on black voter turnout, which implies that either the issues are not actually that common or the effect is inconsequential.

Also, this one is a blatant lie:

> An electoral college and a senate that gives more weight to votes from states with a higher percentage of whites?

The states with the highest percentage of black people are Mississippi and Louisiana. They're both over-represented in the electoral college. So are Maryland, South Carolina, Alabama, Delaware and Arkansas, which are all have a higher than the national average percentage of black people.

The states that get most screwed over by the electoral college are California and Texas. They both have below the national average percentage of black people. So are Pennsylvania, Ohio, Washington, Arizona, Massachusetts and Indiana, which all have below the national average percentage of black people.

And most of the states that get screwed over and do have an above average percentage of black people are only barely above the average.

Exercise for the reader: Of the 17 states with less than proportionate representation as a result of the electoral college, which one has the highest percentage of black people, and which party are their Senators?

> And arguing gerrymandering, proven to benefit one party only at the disadvantage of people of colour, is actually a good thing, is just plain manipulative.

It benefits whichever party was in when they drew the most recent lines. You can hardly claim that's "racism" just because that was most recently the Republicans and the result was to elect fewer Democrats.

And you called it "manipulative" without actually explaining how it was wrong.

Re: The Fourth of July

#208

This is a horrific example of perseverance porn These people were exploited which is terrible. That the nation that exploited them was still more desirable to them than their former home is also terrible. That all they got in return for being exploited was what they were initially promised but decades later is terrible Everything presented here is terrible

"Everything" is a bit uncharitable. There are people in that story who, when they found out about a historic wrong, did something about it. That's not terrible. There are people who are inspired by that act of doing the right thing, and have gone on to be partisans for righting similar wrongs. That's not terrible. That it happened is terrible. Ignoring the good that was done so that we can wallow in the bad is also t…

There's almost 200 comments here but no one that I have seen has actually mentioned who in Washington "did something about it" and Ken's post also left this out.

Hawaii Senators Dan Inouye and Dan Akaka, along with Ted Kennedy were the driving forces for many of the provisions from 1990 to 2010 that sought justice for Filipino veterans. Rob Simmons (R-CT) pushed for the 2003 extension of VA benefits to Filipino vets. Jackie Speier (D-Bay Area) continues to introduce the Filipino Veterans Fairness Act which would extend that to more veterans every session but never advances. The Filipino Veterans Family Reunification bill once had a chance but now also stalls every session. Obama created a program in '16 to allow the family members to stay here while awaiting green card status but Trump ended the program last year.

Re: The Fourth of July

#209
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you see how a reasonable person might read this as catastrophizing? The tweet you linked to is pretty banal, and appears factual. I'm having trouble even connecting the dots from "many of the founders were slaveowners" to "let's cancel America". The nuns taught me the same thing in 1980s Catholic grammar school.

Colin Kaepernick Tweeted today that 'July 4th is a Celebration of White Supremacy'. This is an existential attack on the nation by a popular figure defended and support by most of the press and major international corporations. I don't have the reference, but yesterday, in response to an arguably racist Tweet about a white person doing something within the range of normal, but being interpreted as negative, the top T…

[deleted]

Re: The Fourth of July

#210
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you see how a reasonable person might read this as catastrophizing? The tweet you linked to is pretty banal, and appears factual. I'm having trouble even connecting the dots from "many of the founders were slaveowners" to "let's cancel America". The nuns taught me the same thing in 1980s Catholic grammar school.

Colin Kaepernick Tweeted today that 'July 4th is a Celebration of White Supremacy'. This is an existential attack on the nation by a popular figure defended and support by most of the press and major international corporations. I don't have the reference, but yesterday, in response to an arguably racist Tweet about a white person doing something within the range of normal, but being interpreted as negative, the top T…

The terms are getting diluted to meaninglessness.

For many, just recently "White Supremacy" now equates to "Western Supremacy" which is left to the readers imagination. I suspect that, for example, advocating for democracy, defending the idea of innocent until proven guilty, criticism of repressive regimes, promoting free enterprise or espousing about the sanctity of the individual, or perhaps just Christianity could be seen as promotion of western standards and therefore a supremacist. Where before a white supremacist was just literally a neo nazi, now they might or might not be any politician from 30 years ago.

No one knows anymore.

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