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The Fourth of July

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Re: The Fourth of July

#211

Post by cookie_monsta »

darawk wrote: post #178
cookie_monsta wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. Or maybe the point is that for some people systemic racism isn't just another abstract problem that doesn't really affect them every single day of their lives.

It seems to me that's what's happening in this thread is privileged people with no experience of systemic racism telling Filipino veterans how they ought to feel about the country they fought for. The people with the concrete experience are speaking, and HN commenters are telling them they're bad and wrong and should be more mad. Seems strange, in light of the prevalence of the word 'listen' of late.

Seems like an odd place to put this comment. Nobody's talking about Filipino vets on this sub-thread, much less how they should feel or who is bad or wrong or should be mad. Am I missing subtext?

Re: The Fourth of July

#212

Post by thatoneuser »

yongjik wrote: post #113
hintymad wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and so many people of color came to the US with a suite case and less than $1000 dollars, and then became a successful person in a few years. I certainly did. My wife certainly did. My team, my gardener, and my contractor certainly did. Some people who are from the same school as I went to have even become CEOs of big companies, and some have become famous professors or head of prestigious universities. If anyt…

Focusing on the "cancel culture" is, IMHO, putting the cart in front of the horse. It is a by-product of a society where a cop can murder an African American in broad daylight and (in most cases) suffer no consequences. If you can't trust the society to not murder you , why would you refrain from tearing down anything you don't like? When the society doesn't serve justice, people will implement "justice" with their o…

Oh get off it. Out of all the dangers in the US, death by cop is extremely low. You're much more likely to be killed by a black person than a black person is to be killed by a cop. Let's keep perspective here.

Re: The Fourth of July

#213

Post by [deleted] »

thinkingemote wrote: post #210
jariel wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Colin Kaepernick Tweeted today that 'July 4th is a Celebration of White Supremacy'. This is an existential attack on the nation by a popular figure defended and support by most of the press and major international corporations. I don't have the reference, but yesterday, in response to an arguably racist Tweet about a white person doing something within the range of normal, but being interpreted as negative, the top T…

The terms are getting diluted to meaninglessness. For many, just recently "White Supremacy" now equates to "Western Supremacy" which is left to the readers imagination. I suspect that, for example, advocating for democracy, defending the idea of innocent until proven guilty, criticism of repressive regimes, promoting free enterprise or espousing about the sanctity of the individual, or perhaps just Christianity could…

[deleted]

Re: The Fourth of July

#214

Post by lm28469 »

hintymad wrote: post #63
weiming wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What me and my family talked about today is that, as immigrants, we are so sad how much the "native born" people of the US hate their own country. They seem to never waste an opportunity to remind others of their disdain and it is more and more visible these days e.g. in big news media or on Twitter. Makes me sad and I hope this can change.

Yeah, and so many people of color came to the US with a suite case and less than $1000 dollars, and then became a successful person in a few years. I certainly did. My wife certainly did. My team, my gardener, and my contractor certainly did. Some people who are from the same school as I went to have even become CEOs of big companies, and some have become famous professors or head of prestigious universities. If anyt…

Your argument reads as a convoluted form of "I have a black friend so I can't be racist". I've never seen so many straw men in a single post.

The US has problems that are nowhere as bad in other first world countries and people seem to not even be able to acknowledge that. They're 2 steps ahead on some aspects and 10 steps behind on many more. Yes some people have it real good in the US, but many other have it real bad too, and the ones who have it bad have it worse than in most first world countries. That you and your friends are successful doesn't change that fact.

When people go in the streets, weeks after weeks, risking to get maimed or killed, you have to ask yourself why. If you stop at "Uh I don't like that", "they're just thugs" you haven't done your job as a citizen. Talking of history, people going in the streets and making things change is a pretty big part of almost any countries' history. If anything they're writing history right now.

> And if we follow the logic of cancel culture, we should cancel Rome, cancel Greece, cancel renaissance, cancel all religions, cancel Europe, cancel China, cancel India, cancel Africa. They all had their share of slavery, for centuries. They all had their share of atrocity, again for centuries. Then what's left? What's the point? And should we cancel our childhood? Should we cancel ourselves? Most of us, after all, did something stupid or horrible when we were young. Should our parents cancel us?

What logic ? Come on, stop playing dumb, no one ever made these points, ever. Go outside, out of your echo chambers, in the real world, talk to people. What you're describing doesn't exist outside of twitter fringe communities.

> That's why it's history! Human learn. Human improve.

And that's exactly what people are trying to do when they tell you to stop flying the confederate flag and having statues of people with dubious past in front of their town hall.

> We have NBA who have more than 70% of black athletes. We idolize them.

Right, "shut up and dribble". https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/02/19/587097707... also https://youtu.be/DMUVeMmyFxk?t=115. Racism in sport has always been there, it's painfully obvious as soon as you start digging.

Re: The Fourth of July

#215

Post by IfOnlyYouKnew »

barry-cotter wrote: post #92
brians wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was the only path for my family—illegal immigrants in the inter-war years who served in WW2 for citizenship. The US kept its promise to Europeans, even those not then considered white—but broke its promise to Filipinos. We have a lot of growing to do.

> The US kept its promise to Europeans, even those not then considered white No Europeans were ever not considered white under US law. Blacks, Native Americans and Asians have all been othered racially under US law. All Europeans have always been considered white. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_whiteness_in_th...

The article isn’t quite as clear on that. Jews were classified as non-white at least for a while and in the census. Italians also faced discrimination, although not by law.

Then, obviously, there are British citizens ich Indian roots, and Belgians born in Kongo. Not sure how they fit into this debate.

Re: The Fourth of July

#216

Post by pydry »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #150
yongjik wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Focusing on the "cancel culture" is, IMHO, putting the cart in front of the horse. It is a by-product of a society where a cop can murder an African American in broad daylight and (in most cases) suffer no consequences. If you can't trust the society to not murder you , why would you refrain from tearing down anything you don't like? When the society doesn't serve justice, people will implement "justice" with their o…

The probability for a black person of being killed by the police in the US is approximately 0.0005%. That's the probability of being killed (most commonly because you pulled a weapon on a cop), not the probability of being murdered, which is at least an order of magnitude lower than that. There shouldn't be anybody getting murdered by the police. It's totally unreasonable. But it is in actual fact extremely uncommon.

Imagine a gang running your neighborhood that has a 0.0005% of murdering you (but if they do they'll get away with it) and an even "smaller* chance of protecting you from murder (don't forget that gangs exist for protection as much as power projection) , but is likely to beat, coerce and steal from you with total impunity.

The gang is well stocked with small arms, helicopters, tanks, missiles and even anti aircraft weapons.

They view you as threat to be pacifier although they're unlikely to murder you specifically.

What's to be done with that gang?

Re: The Fourth of July

#217

Post by lm28469 »

rayiner wrote: post #145
geofft wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is attacking a straw man. There is no (serious) argument to "cancel" America wholesale (well, apart from the anarchists, but they'd agree with you about all those other countries too). There is a serious argument for holding America accountable for the things she has done wrong. You only hold people accountable whom you believe are actually trying to do good and whom you actually think can do better. People talk…

There is a serious attempt to cancel America, that goes beyond holding America responsible for its past wrongs. Someone posted a link to this tweet elsewhere in this thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/arlenparsa/status/116818940954980... I think this is not an uncommon opinion and it’s becoming more and more mainstream. And that sort of thinking is an attempt to cancel America. It’s not just saying that America has d…

> There is a serious attempt to cancel America

_links to a random post on twitter_

See, this, right there, is the root of the majority of our problems. The world isn't twitter.

Twitter is majoritarily left leaning, middle class, white, US male, millennials [0] stop making it sound like the world is out to cancel the US. It's a tiny minority of the world on a big website, a big fish in a small pond. Don't shape your view of the world through twitter.

It's like going to a KKK rally and being upset everyone is racist.

[0] https://www.omnicoreagency.com/twitter-statistics/

Re: The Fourth of July

#219

Post by iso947 »

pjc50 wrote: post #192
throwaway0891 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a look at "legal immigrant that lived here their entire lives is a real " the US goes say down in support. It's clear they see it as a purely legal status, not necessarily as acceptance in a society. That survey probably conflates ethnicity and nationality, as many countries use the same word for both. Like Hungary for example. PS: There's no way 50% of Brits think gaining citizenship doesn't make you Bri…

> There's no way 50% of Brits think gaining citizenship doesn't make you British, unless they don't speak English. That's what the word means! That's what you think the word means, but a lot of people use "British" and "English" as ethnicity descriptors, and standard language on survey forms includes "white British" as an ethnicity. I can quite believe that 50% of the population thinks that gaining citizenship still…

I wouldn’t be surprised if it is 52%

Re: The Fourth of July

#220

Post by iso947 »

hef19898 wrote: post #186
rayiner wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada is great. It’s virtually indistinguishable from America for the typical person. I don’t know where you’re from, but as a Bangladeshi immigrant to the US, but I wouldn’t emigrate to the EU. 76% of Americans say that a naturalized citizen is a “real American” and just 13% disagree: https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/... . In France it’s 55-28. In Italy it’s 41-36. There is no place in th…

Right wing parties won the UK, if you want to call Boris Johnson that. They lost in France, biggly. They lost in the Netherlands. They won some state elections in Germany, if becoming the biggest opposition party in state parliaments without any chance of governing can be called winning (they got more votes than I am comfortable with, so). But who again held Congress until 2018 and still holds the Senate and the Pres…

Right wing parties in the UK got 46.4% of the vote in 2019
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