Colleges are reopening in fall, but many professors won’t be present • Hacker News Board

Re: Colleges are reopening in fall, but many professors won’t be present

#91

Post by harryh » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 2:13 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #56

gbronner wrote: post #18

This is looking more and more like an extinction event for academia. Elite institutions can charge whatever they want for their brand name and selectivity, and for the environment of other equally motivated high potential students. Other schools combine a school with a resort/cruise ship experience. Insofar as the school is no better than a bunch of videos, and the resort is mostly shut down, so long as employers don…

> This is looking more and more like an extinction event for academia. God I hope you’re right.

Many universities are certainly going to have problems but it's hard to see an event that causes problems for a single semester (or maybe two) being an extinction event.

Re: Colleges are reopening in fall, but many professors won’t be present

#92

Post by scarface74 » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 2:19 AM UTC

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #84

scarface74 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. Most studies show that what college you go to only matters for a few professions. Way back when I graduated, 3 years in, I was making just as much as people that went to prestigious schools for my same area (computer science) and I paid less for one year of college than they paid for four - and no debt. If I were graduating today and wanted to work in Big Tech, I would spend six months to a year preparing…

It looks like you quickly copy/pasted some articles from a Google search, but unfortunately your linked articles don’t back up what you say, rather they only indicate it’s somewhat complicated. For example from the first link: > “ However, another expert, this one from The Atlantic, says that where you go to school does matter, and he also has a study that backs up his point of view. There are institutions, especiall…

On a tech site I’m talking specifically about tech jobs. If you are making only a median of $70K after spending tens of thousands of dollars at an Ivy League school. That’s not actually a good investment.

You can make $70K graduating from your run of the mill state school as a an enterprise CRUD developer in any major city in the US that’s not on the west coast.

Other studies have shown that there are no difference in salary between people who were accepted in an Ivy League school and didn’t attend as those who did go.

Also, in tech, you can make $200K within two or three years easily - regardless of college you attended.

I’ve been a senior architect and engineering manager for a while. I have never noticed any correlation between people who whiz through algorithm interviews and people who are effective at achieving business outcomes and project success once in the role.

I agree, and actually submitted tweet on HN a while back.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19687593

Whether it is correlated with outcomes or not, is irrelevant to the fact that you can get into big tech by being able to do algorithms and make $200K relatively early on in your career.

I personally didn’t “get into a FAANG” by doing a whiteboard interview. I got in as a “cloud consultant” where I had to have a history of achieving business outcomes.

Re: Colleges are reopening in fall, but many professors won’t be present

#93

Post by mlthoughts2018 » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 2:29 AM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #92

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks like you quickly copy/pasted some articles from a Google search, but unfortunately your linked articles don’t back up what you say, rather they only indicate it’s somewhat complicated. For example from the first link: > “ However, another expert, this one from The Atlantic, says that where you go to school does matter, and he also has a study that backs up his point of view. There are institutions, especiall…

On a tech site I’m talking specifically about tech jobs. If you are making only a median of $70K after spending tens of thousands of dollars at an Ivy League school. That’s not actually a good investment. You can make $70K graduating from your run of the mill state school as a an enterprise CRUD developer in any major city in the US that’s not on the west coast. Other studies have shown that there are no difference i…

You simply aren’t engaging with the conversation in good faith. The same strata apply to tech jobs. If the median is say $120k, you’ll see the same doubling of median for Harvard grads, or close to it.

It seems like you’re deliberately trying not to engage with the point of the article, and instead trying to claim some bizarre specific standard of tech salaries you are making is supposed to be comparable to the data from eg the Boston Globe article (which explicitly refutes the point you’re trying to make).

Anyway, I can’t help you if you have your mind made up and you’re reading confirmation bias articles as tea leaves.

Re: Colleges are reopening in fall, but many professors won’t be present

#94

Post by hardwaregeek » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 2:33 AM UTC

gbronner wrote: post #18

This is looking more and more like an extinction event for academia. Elite institutions can charge whatever they want for their brand name and selectivity, and for the environment of other equally motivated high potential students. Other schools combine a school with a resort/cruise ship experience. Insofar as the school is no better than a bunch of videos, and the resort is mostly shut down, so long as employers don…

You'd think so, but a surprising amount of students are still attending. What else would they do? Most can't get a job. They can't join a program like the Peace Corps. Anything beyond those two options requires a degree of self confidence and financial independence that most students don't have. Colleges are offering a pretty mediocre proposition but there aren't many other options.

Re: Colleges are reopening in fall, but many professors won’t be present

#95

Post by barry-cotter » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 2:40 AM UTC

pyuser583 wrote: post #61

vgchh wrote: post #41

For universities to fully crumble and education to become significantly cheaper, in addition to all the advancements that have occurred in last decade, I believe we need a credible way to certify students online. Imagine if someone sitting in Tibet or slums of Bombay could prove to Googles of the world that he/she (and not some hired help) successfully completed a highly ranked test online, it could be transformative…

But colleges aren’t about testing, but educating. Taking people who can’t pass a test, and turning them into people who can. The test is merely to help discern how good a job the schools have done. The etymology of educating is to “lead someone out of” something - namely ignorance.

There are many more people who would buy a Princeton diploma without a Princeton education than the reverse. Universities put a lot of effort into stopping people fraudulently claiming to be graduates but ~no effort into stopping people from attending classes without paying for them.

Universities are about a combination of education and certification but the certification is overwhelmingly what people pay for.

Re: Colleges are reopening in fall, but many professors won’t be present

#96

Post by ckdarby » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 2:44 AM UTC

This is the con of universities. The only way to justify the tuition is face-to-face teaching and to have access to all those amenities.

Once you remove those students would be asking for price reduction.

Re: Colleges are reopening in fall, but many professors won’t be present

#97

Post by scarface74 » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 2:48 AM UTC

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #93

scarface74 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a tech site I’m talking specifically about tech jobs. If you are making only a median of $70K after spending tens of thousands of dollars at an Ivy League school. That’s not actually a good investment. You can make $70K graduating from your run of the mill state school as a an enterprise CRUD developer in any major city in the US that’s not on the west coast. Other studies have shown that there are no difference i…

You simply aren’t engaging with the conversation in good faith. The same strata apply to tech jobs. If the median is say $120k, you’ll see the same doubling of median for Harvard grads, or close to it. It seems like you’re deliberately trying not to engage with the point of the article, and instead trying to claim some bizarre specific standard of tech salaries you are making is supposed to be comparable to the data…

No. I’m saying in tech, whether you or I agree with algorithm type interviews. They are the great equalizer.

If you are applying for your standard CRUD jobs where you go to school isn’t going to matter. They are in my experience going to ask you techno trivia and may have you doing coding problems slightly above FizzBuzz level of complexity and are going to pay you the same regardless. The interview is the equalizer.

If you are applying for a company that wants “smart people” (tm) like the Big Tech companies and the big tech wannabes, algorithms are going to be the great equalizer.

We are on a tech site with plenty of people who work or have worked for BigTech. Almost all of the people here know how interviews and hiring works at Big Tech. Many know how hiring works at your standard CRUD jobs.

I have experience with both.

Re: Colleges are reopening in fall, but many professors won’t be present

#98

Post by kevin_thibedeau » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 2:52 AM UTC

hardwaregeek wrote: post #94

gbronner wrote: post #18

This is looking more and more like an extinction event for academia. Elite institutions can charge whatever they want for their brand name and selectivity, and for the environment of other equally motivated high potential students. Other schools combine a school with a resort/cruise ship experience. Insofar as the school is no better than a bunch of videos, and the resort is mostly shut down, so long as employers don…

You'd think so, but a surprising amount of students are still attending. What else would they do? Most can't get a job. They can't join a program like the Peace Corps. Anything beyond those two options requires a degree of self confidence and financial independence that most students don't have. Colleges are offering a pretty mediocre proposition but there aren't many other options.

Presumably Americorps is still functioning. Be a contact tracer in your gap year.

Re: Colleges are reopening in fall, but many professors won’t be present

#99

Post by ckdarby » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 2:56 AM UTC

mdorazio wrote: post #58

outoftheabyss wrote: post #4

I’m doing a distance data science degree at a fraction of the cost and I would imagine I’m getting much more out of it than this September intake will. There’s been a revolution in remote working, will education follow?

Be careful in your assumptions here. Online degrees still carry a huge negative stigma with them (which is interesting given that all students in the current cohorts at normal universities will have had several semesters of remote learning). Signalling of the college brand is also largely underappreciated by online students. You're getting a degree for a fraction of the cost of an in-person one, but it may or may not…

I believe they're specifically talking about data science and fields related?

I'm a prior software development manager and degrees in general in this kind of field don't carry much weight outside of academic hires and very select companies.

While some companies or hiring managers might frown upon this it doesn't matter if there is an active hiring group that doesn't put any weight on them.

I guess one could argue that the ones who frown upon the degree pay more competitive but I've only found the opposite to be true with my experience.

(I'm ignoring FAANG because they're so unique that they're an exception to everything in the "real world")

Re: Colleges are reopening in fall, but many professors won’t be present

#100

Post by barry-cotter » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 3:01 AM UTC

1996 wrote: post #15

College currently sell an "experience" with clubs, restaurants, football teams, fraternities, housing, a nice campus with trees and lakes, etc. This isn't free. It has pushed up the price of education. If education turns remote, I would expect prices to fall (and layoffs for the administrative staff), unless a similar experience part can be replicated online (which I strongly doubt) This is the exact opposite of work…

> This is the exact opposite of work vs remote work: if WFH becomes the default, I would expect wages to rise, as the most "experience" provided in the workplace (with nice offices, nice chairs, window view, in a nice campus with amenities like catering etc) will be footed by the employee in a WFH setting

Pocket lint compared to the unavoidable costs of employing someone in terms of monetary and in kind compensation and taxes. Knowledge workers are a lot more expensive to employ than the ancillary capital that goes along with getting the benefit of their Labour.