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Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on user tracking

uk.reuters.com

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Re: Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on user tracking

#171

My TV doesn't track me and it can still provide me ad.

> My TV doesn't track me Are you sure? https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/18/you-wat...

Op may, like me, have a dumb TV.

You can't buy them anymore, but you can still buy computer monitors with about the same size so that is probably what I will be doing when it goes.

Re: Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on user tracking

#172

I see a resurgence in marketing similar to Mad Men: where firms don’t have access to highly personalized data, and eventually, will actually have to be creative, instead of just using algorithms parameterized with user tracking/profile data

The future of marketing is already here, and it's influencer marketing, as well as more subtle forms of manipulation on social media.

I guess you could call it creative. But it's also even more insidious and dishonest.

Re: Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on user tracking

#173
post #140

I wish the Safari content blocking API allowed cookies to be blocked. I'd block cookies for 99% of sites I visit, allowing them only for the handful of sites to which I login. I'd suggest Safari could even make cookies require getting user permission, the same way location access needs to be granted. "Allow, allow for 24 hours, deny." It could default deny except for sites to which it has a saved password which could…

Safari started blocking third party cookies by default earlier this year.

https://www.engadget.com/2020-03-24-safari-blocks-all-third-...

Previously, you had to flip a switch in the settings.

Re: Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on user tracking

#174
post #163

> Sixteen marketing associations, some of which are backed by Facebook Inc (FB.O) and Alphabet Inc’s (GOOGL.O) Google, faulted Apple for not adhering to an ad-industry system for seeking user consent under European privacy rules. Apps will now need to ask for permission twice, increasing the risk users will refuse, the associations argued. I was taken aback when I read that sixteen(!) agencies had banded together, in…

The crazy thing is some people will use this passage to justify not having regulations at all, because "regulating them will only make them conspire together against everyone!", when in fact the main reason Smith connects the two is that without regulation, the competitors (who are described as local artisans, not giant international corporations) might otherwise not know of one another's existence and would never ta…

I wouldn't cast it quite so simply. Smith and the classical liberal tradition he represented would likely be skeptical of regulations by default, but would evaluate them based on costs and benefits.

You make an excellent point about Smith's treatment of firms as local artisans rather than large corporations. Incidentally, he uses the word corporation a paragraph below what I pasted, but it most likely refers to guilds or firms with monopolies, and not our modern idea of corporate bodies.

That said, I tend to think of Coase as the sort of successor to Adam Smith's thinking. I find it not coincidental that Coase formulated the modern theory of the firm that economics still subscribes to, as well as extrapolating transaction costs into the realms of legal disputes and the administrative state. Coase himself was also skeptical of government regulation, not as a matter of ideology or principle (in fact, he said that in principle, many regulations could be effective, though he did also argue reductio ad absurdum that the state should regulate speech as vigorously as products [0]), but as a matter of empirical investigation [1].

[0] https://web.ntpu.edu.tw/~guan/courses/Coase74.pdf [1] https://reason.com/1997/01/01/looking-for-results/

Re: Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on user tracking

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> collusion from Google and Facebook Is there a good reason to believe that Google or Facebook are involved? Seems like it may be a tenuous connection given the article's vagueness: "some" of 16 unnamed "associations" are "backed" by Google/Facebook, according to a source we know nothing about.

Yes, the good reasons to believe this are (1) the article states it (news reports tend to be awful, but in my opinion we should at least give prima facie credence to their claims unless a knowledgeable party disputes them) and (2) it entirely aligns with Facebook's/Google's interests to engage in this kind of support/collusion.

I'm not suggesting that Reuters is lying; I would trust them if they claimed to have evidence of Google's/Facebook's involvement. I'm just complaining about their weasel words like "backed", which could be interpreted in a variety of ways.

Re: Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on user tracking

#176
post #65

It's cool to conciously see the death of an industry and watch as marketing firms fail to migrate away from traditional ads. You can whinge and whine, but progress stops for nobody. It's also great to see Apple building this into iOS, definitely a highlight of WWDC, for me. I often see the location indicator come on and wonder what else I'm not seeing.

There seem to be two conflicting lines of thought about the future of advertising. 1) Companies are learning that non-online advertising is not very worthwhile and so are reducing the resources allocated to, say, network TV ads. This has already happened to a large extent to print and radio advertising. This suggests that the future of online advertising is bright. 2) Companies are learning that online advertising is…

I sure hope so! But in all seriousness I don't think those two points conflict per se; they both say, "...advertising is not very worthwhile..." which kind of nails what's going on. The ground under our feet has changed. The audience by-and-large is fragmented, jaded, fickle, fed up, and has no money.

Fed up for the last 5 years hearing about scandal after scandal, outrage after outrage...

Fragmented for about the last 5-10 years, ever since we figured out the "long tail" and how to cater to everybody's unique interests. There is no longer anything approximating a place where everybody goes/is; hence there's not even a consensus anymore about what reality is, which is a related & tangential issue.

Has no money, well that's more of a continuum... either you do or you don't, but every year a larger number of people don't, and are too broke to be in the market for whatever product.

Jaded with advertising in general ever since probably the Boomers were in their 20s, and moreso when Gen X were teenagers.

Jaded with online advertising ever since the 90s when it became clear ads were going to follow us into what everybody thought was going to be a new online world.

Fickle since the dawn of time.

Re: Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on user tracking

#177
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Re: Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on user tracking

#178

> Sixteen marketing associations, some of which are backed by Facebook Inc (FB.O) and Alphabet Inc’s (GOOGL.O) Google, faulted Apple for not adhering to an ad-industry system for seeking user consent under European privacy rules. Apps will now need to ask for permission twice, increasing the risk users will refuse, the associations argued. I was taken aback when I read that sixteen(!) agencies had banded together, in…

Do you seriously think that all business decisions are based on economic greed? Some people do have values and morality and integrity.

Re: Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on user tracking

#179
post #158

> Apple last week disclosed features in its forthcoming operating system for iPhones and iPads that will require apps to show a pop-up screen before they enable a form of tracking commonly needed to show personalized ads. Christ almighty I don't think I can take more pop-ups. They're just cancer. Cookies, newsletters, forced logins, individual folder permissions... how many bullshit popups do I have to deal with per…

>Things like cookies, tracking, etc. should be a browser- or OS-wide setting. Asking me individually for every site, for every app, is the absolute worst user experience ever. Sorry but this pattern just has to DIE. We already have that, the Do Not Track header. Advertising companies ignore it because they're not legally obliged to honor it. Reminder that these companies do not care about you or your user experience…

> Advertising companies ignore it because they're not legally obliged to honor it.

Ironically enough, they don't ignore it. They instead just use it as another bit of entropy to differentiate you from everyone else who doesn't include the DNT header.

Re: Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on user tracking

#180
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure there is an "objective measure of success" in the most plainly obvious way possible -- sales. Versus the bullshitty stats like impressions or accidental click-throughs that dominate online advertising.

“Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted; the trouble is I don’t know which half.”

"So give me some horseshit garbage numbers and we'll call it a day!"

In the end what actually elicits a feeling about a brand, or a choice to act, is in no way the thing that people are actually measuring.

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